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Car Forum / Volvo Cars / February 2006Volvo 740 Turbo with "shaved" housing with a hole in it ?
Hi everyone I started another thread in which I lost turbo pressure. Well, it turns out that the 2" aluminum foil-type hose which goes from under the airbox to the back down by the exhaust I assume was very old and had holes. I replaced it and have boost but the problem I noticed is the Turbo housing was shaved with some type of tool and a hole was made? To relieve pressure? Why would they have done that? I mean maybe that's why I dont' have full boost turbo power and maybe why the guage is somewhere around 10 o'clock when I'm not even moving? I was going to plug it with JB Weld, but now I'm afraid. I mean I don't want to blow up the thing. Do you think the previous owner had a pressure problem so they did the mickey mouse job and relieved the pressure by shaving the metal housing and alowing a hole for pressure relief? Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks ! > Hi everyone I started another thread in which I lost turbo pressure. > Well, it turns out that the 2" aluminum foil-type hose which goes from > under the airbox to the back down by the exhaust I assume was very old > and had holes. I replaced it and have boost but the problem I noticed > is the Turbo housing was shaved with some type of tool and a hole was > made? Can you get a picture? I can't think of any hole that should be in the turbo housing, where exactly is it? > To relieve pressure? Why would they have done that? I mean maybe > that's why I dont' have full boost turbo power and maybe why the guage > is somewhere around 10 o'clock when I'm not even moving? As I said earlier, the guage is supposed to sit around 10 o'clock when the car is not running. Black is vacuum, yellow is boost, the place where they meet is atmospheric pressure, if the guage is not pointed there when the engine is off then it's broken. > I was going to plug it with JB Weld, but now I'm afraid. I mean I > don't want to blow up the thing. Do you think the previous owner had a > pressure problem so they did the mickey mouse job and relieved the > pressure by shaving the metal housing and alowing a hole for pressure > relief? Did something wear on it and make a hole? Or is it on the exhaust side? Perhaps the car ran lean and overheated the exhaust housing, melting a hole in it. No, James. The ACTUAL TURBO CHARGER housing was shaved down (grind the metal down on one the left side) and a whole was created. I believe its a Garrett (it's got a metal little label that's all greasy) So maybe that's why I've had the leak all this time? But the hose I replaced helped. I mean I accelerate and such. Now by "exhaust side you mean after the intercooler and AMM, right? Because I mean the ACTUAL TURBOCHARGER housing, if that makes sense. I took some pictures of it. All it looks like is picture the "donut housing" of the turbo charger and shaved down one side. It looks really weird. I can email you the pics. I think you will find that James may be querying whether your car was fitted with EGR (the hole being on the manifold just above the turbo mount, should have a metal tube going to the EGR valve) that caused the PO a problem so he removed it. All the best, Peter. 700/900/90 Register Keeper, Volvo Owners Club (UK). > No, James. The ACTUAL TURBO CHARGER housing was shaved down (grind the > metal down on one the left side) and a whole was created. I believe [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Now by "exhaust side you mean after the intercooler and AMM, right? > Because I mean the ACTUAL TURBOCHARGER housing, if that makes sense. > I think you will find that James may be querying whether your car was fitted > with EGR (the hole being on the manifold just above the turbo mount, should > have a metal tube going to the EGR valve) that caused the PO a problem so he > removed it. I've never encountered a Volvo with EGR, I don't believe they used it in the US market. None of the manifolds I've ever seen have had any unused holes in them. The tube I'm referring to is a corrugated aluminum hose which connects a sheath over the exhaust manifold to the airbox, the purpose being to draw heated air into the intake when the engine is cold to accelerate warmup. There's a wax thermostat in the airbox which operates a flap valve to close off this tube, if it gets stuck open and hot air is drawn in once the engine has already warmed up then the air mass meter can be damaged. Yeah, I've opened the airbox when I changed the air filter. I saw that flap that flaps open/closed. I accidentally "touched it" (because the car is so old and never maintained, touching can damage :P) and part of the flap crumbled. Where is the thermostat in there? Looking at that pic---I don't know which side is which, hehe. But Okay, well, interested, here are the pics ! http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/circuitslave/56bfbefc.jpg http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/circuitslave/17edccea.jpg http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c300/circuitslave/KIF_0569.jpg I see, well, the whole is on the compressor side, as you can see. > I see, well, the whole is on the compressor side, as you can see. Crap! That's sure the first time I've ever seen THAT happen! That's a Mitsubishi turbo, same one I have in my '87. It's pretty clear that the aluminum hose has ground a hole in the compressor housing from years of rubbing, it's no wonder you're losing boost and getting funny sounds. Try patching it up with some JB Weld, just don't get chunks inside the turbo. A better solution, if you're able to do this, is to remove the housing and take it to a welding shop and have them TIG the hole closed but removing it with the turbo on the car is a real pain, there's not much wrench access. James, I think it was intentional--there's no way that could have happened with rubbing. I'm looking into it---FYI, the Volvo was a single owner--my uncle and it's been like that for years. And his son (who let's just say is had a somewhat drifty life) told him "Dad, I know a guy who fix turbo charger's for like $75." It's steel, no way that could have happened, IMHO. > James, I think it was intentional--there's no way that could have > happened with rubbing. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It's steel, no way that could have happened, IMHO. It's aluminum, and it's definitely a hole rubbed in it, look at how it lines up there, I'd bet money that's what happened. I have the exact same car with the exact same turbo, there's no hole there and absolutely no reason to have one. Aluminum is soft, my alternator has a gouge rubbed in it from the plastic cable sheath rubbing on it over the years, even steel will wear like that if a bit of oily road grit gets in there, it's the same way you can polish scratches out of metal or glass with a cotton cloth and some abrasive powder. I'm sorry, my bad. Yeah, aluminum. Well, it's on the intake side, so couldn't JB weld work? I talked to my other uncle who says, well, it's not like it's on the exhaust side, so it might work. I'd get it welded but--well, It's my daily driver and if it's from wear, it's been like that for years, so a month or two isn't going to make a difference I think. FYI for clarification the turbo lacked power since about 2002. I thought I lost power, but I never really had it to begin with, hehe. > I'm sorry, my bad. Yeah, aluminum. Well, it's on the intake side, so > couldn't JB weld work? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > wear, it's been like that for years, so a month or two isn't going to > make a difference I think. Well patch it with something, with a boost leak like that you're burning a lot of extra fuel since it's metering the air before the leak and fueling accordingly. You'll burn up your catalytic converter driving it like it is. yeah, I know. The hose helped I guess (the hold one) because it was covering the whole somewhat. So, if this is what happened---isn't this rare? I've yet to hear about something like this. I don't know---it doesn't seem right. > yeah, I know. The hose helped I guess (the hold one) because it was > covering the whole somewhat. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I don't know---it doesn't seem right. The metal hose is supposed to be routed so it isn't touching the turbo, it probably got pushed in the way at some point, or the motor mounts may be shot and allowing the motor to move around. hmmm.. Yeah, someone mentioned the motor mounts previously. I'll look into that as well. There is a metal band on the side that holds the heater hose--it was held in place but not securely. Thanks for the info---oh and forgive all my misspellings. : ) >hmmm.. Yeah, someone mentioned the motor mounts previously. I'll look >into that as well. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Thanks for the info---oh and forgive all my misspellings. : ) Do not forget to cover the hole with a small metal disc. Otherwise you are likely to get the epoxy inside and gum up your turbine. That thing spins over 100,000 RPM. You don't want to unbalance it. Regards, Boris Mohar Got Knock? - see: Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things) http://www.viatrack.ca void _-void-_ in the obvious place Oh, yeah, I know Boris, thanks. I'm going to use a dime ; ) The hole was hidden by that aluminium pre heat hose. Looking at the car --everything looks fine no obvious signs. I don't know, not to jump to conclusions, but it just looks devious. >The hole was hidden by that aluminium pre heat hose. Looking at the >car --everything looks fine no obvious signs. I don't know, not to >jump to conclusions, but it just looks devious. I was browsing through my Turbobricks forum and stumbled on someone's project.that shows a turbo with a similar wear mark except that it has not gone through. Look at the third picture from the bottom http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=63571 Regards, Boris Mohar Got Knock? - see: Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things) http://www.viatrack.ca void _-void-_ in the obvious place You mean the pic with the driver seat and that' s it? hehe, just joking--- I know which one you were referring to. :P I put the dime on with JB Kwik and will then seal it with the regular weld. I'll post an updated pic when I'm done. Also let me ask you Boris, if you might know. Have you ever changed the oil seal from the oil return line on the turbocharger? I gotta leak that's been like that forever (or should I say, the previous owner had). Is it difficult? I hear about being careful not to pinch the seal---I'm just hoping I can get to it with a rachet extension. I haven't tried yet, but I want to try tomorrow. >You mean the pic with the driver seat and that' s it? > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >to pinch the seal---I'm just hoping I can get to it with a rachet >extension. I haven't tried yet, but I want to try tomorrow. No I have not (yet) Maybe someone here knows, else visit Turbobricks Maintenance and nonperformance section of the forum and ask there. You do not have to register. Regards, Boris Mohar Got Knock? - see: Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs (among other things) http://www.viatrack.ca void _-void-_ in the obvious place Actually someone here said it was possible---I'm just trying to get some details. thanks, I'll check there, too. Well, I drove it right now--just to see--I haven't set the regular Weld yet. But just to see, and it's helped alot! However, when I go into boost near the back of the car I still hear the flutter---what it sounds like ( only when going into yellow turbo on the guage) is what sounds like is a rapid drum roll sound ---it's like light rapid rain---like a snare drum roll rapidly with a wire brush. Maybe an exhaust leak or something on the catalytic converter ? muffler ? I don't smell anything or exhaust fumes ? BTW, there is light smoke smell on the engine. I think the oil trap is blocked. I pulled the oil cap loose and it jumps around. Who knows when that thing has been cleaned/changed. Maybe that's why I got the oil leak on the oil return pipe. > Actually someone here said it was possible---I'm just trying to get > some details. > > thanks, I'll check there, too. The real fun is when the old gasket sticks firmly to the turbo and you have to spend an hour scraping it off with a razor blade. Usually it's got enough oil soak to come off, once I had it stick very firmly, though thankfully the turbo was on the bench at the time. I didn't get around to it today---still need to change it---but before I do that I had to "buy some time" and cleaned the oil trap instead of replacing it. Man ! that thing was clogged like an artery ! The car had been smelling like it was burning oil--open the engine lid and you could see smoke. I even did the oil cap test and not only did it jump around it spit oil out. Now nice suction ; ) I'll replace the oil trap soon--I don't think it has ever been changed or looked it. Man, what neglect this poor car had. I'll seal the hole later. I tested it out and maybe I shouldn't have--'cuz the JB kwik now looks like a scab beginning to peel. Maybe I didn't wait long enough for it to cure. > No, James. The ACTUAL TURBO CHARGER housing was shaved down (grind the > metal down on one the left side) and a whole was created. I believe [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Now by "exhaust side you mean after the intercooler and AMM, right? > Because I mean the ACTUAL TURBOCHARGER housing, if that makes sense. Yikes, that's definitely a problem. By exhaust side, I mean the exhaust turbine housing, as opposed to the compressor housing. The former is cast iron and will be all rusty, the latter is aluminum and facing the front of the car. Are your engine mounts completely shot? Only thing I can think of is maybe the turbo has been rubbing against something but I've never seen that happen. You can see a good picture here of a T3 http://www.servia.fi/~professi/AdvHTML_Upload/files/timon_tiomi_012.jpg As well as another showing the inside, with the compressor and turbine blade assemblies joined to the shaft running through the center cartridge. The wastegate actuator is also visible. http://www.lanciadelta.org/images/garrett.jpg Would JB Weld hold up to the heat generated by a Turbo at full boil? I think not. Without pulling the turbo, what else would work? Muffler bandage maybe? I replaced the pre heat house, as you can see in the pic, but the hole was blocked by the old house, that's why it makes me suspicous. > Would JB Weld hold up to the heat generated by a Turbo at full boil? > > I think not. Not on the exhaust side certainly, but on the intake it might, it'd be iffy though. Best solution aside from replacing the housing would be to weld it. > Would JB Weld hold up to the heat generated by a Turbo at full boil? > > I think not. JB Weld is spec'd for up to 500F. http://jbweld.net/products/jbweld.php I doubt the compressor side gets much above 300F and the pressure is insignificant. The way I'd do it is to clean the surface with brake cleaner and JB Weld a piece of metal over it - I'm concerned the JB Weld might crack if you try to bridge the void with it. A coin that is slightly larger than the hole will conform to the curved surface reasonably well. JB Kwik or a small bead of the putty equivalent will hold the plug in place without the need to come up with a fancy clamp; you'll just need some patience to hold it until it sets - about five minutes. Then mix some JB Weld to apply around and over the plug. Epoxies harden best when hot, so the car should be drivable within an hour or so if you don't wind it up too much. BTW, I would expect noticably better performance and fuel economy from repairing the hole. It is having the same effect that any other hole in the boosted side of the intake has: it draws more air through the AMM than the engine is really using, which convinces the ECU to inject fuel to match. I don't know how it got this way, but you'll be a lot happier when it is fixed. Mike Thanks, Mike, I was just going to use the JB-stick and cover the whole, but that repair sounds more sufficient. I have JB-Weld --so your saying like buy the stick or the Kwik just just get it covered because the regular Weld needs cure time. Well, thanks everyone. I'll let you guys know how it runs. I've gotta run around and I'll set it tonight. Hopefully I'll be able to "move fast one a dime" (as opposed to stopping on one, :P ) |
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