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Car Forum / Volvo Cars / May 2006Rusted, stubborn front shock retaining nut - 240
I have some *very old* shocks up front on my '85 245. I've finished all the suspension work except for the front strut components. Over three different work sessions, I've tried to loosen the retaining nut on one shock with no luck. Well, actually, there's a little bad luck. As I've been yarding on the bolt, one side has curled up. The gorilla in me wants to start using a sawzall/hacksaw to cut away the shock in parts, but I know that won't work (right?). I've been drenching the retaining nuts on both sides of the car with penetrating solvent and that hasn't helped yet. Most of the bushings in the car were a bear to remove because of the rust, so I'm concerned the retaining nut is in the same class of stubborn. I've read in an older thread that I can hit the area with a torch to loosen the nut. Before I go out and melt my strut, I figured I'd see if somebody has any advice? Is a propane torch hot enough or should I seek out a cutting torch :) I have a tendency to break things, so I'm starting to think that I should probably seek out a shop to remove the nut. But I'm also stubborn, and really just want to do it myself, especially since this is the last of the suspension mods and it's been a knock-down, drag out, bloody knuckle slugfest and I don't want to quit in the 35th round. Thanks in advance for any help or advice, Mike Which nut? > Which nut? The cartridge retainer nut. In this case it's a large, thin, fragile, rusted nut that would take an 2" wrench. I'm using large channel locks. A good idea at the time, but probably not the best choice. The Billstein replacement has the slotted-flange type retainer nut. > > Which nut? > > The cartridge retainer nut. In this case it's a large, thin, fragile, > rusted nut that would take an 2" wrench. I'm using large channel locks. A > good idea at the time, but probably not the best choice. The Billstein > replacement has the slotted-flange type retainer nut. Yes some times those are real tough. On the bright side, the ones for the 700 series are usually worse. Heating them up is usually the best way, and propane is not hot enough. Also, keep in mind that you possibly have trapped oil and maybe even high pressure nitrogen, and it'll want to expand as you heat it up - safety gear is the order of the day. And large channel locks are usually the best tool - the correct tool works great when the strut is brand new and they taking pictures for the manual, but it fails miserably after the assembly has spent years marinating in salt water.  SignatureMike F. Thornhill (near Toronto), Ont. Replace tt with t (twice!) and remove parentheses to email me directly. (But I check the newsgroup more often than this email address.) > > > Which nut? > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > for the manual, but it fails miserably after the assembly has spent > years marinating in salt water. And what would you be knowing about salt water marinating, Mike? :) > > > Which nut? > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Replace tt with t (twice!) and remove parentheses to email me directly. > (But I check the newsgroup more often than this email address.) Thanks, Mike. I guess it's some consolation that another model has it worse, but I can't imagine it being any worse. That said, the thought of a hot torch, trapped oil, high pressure nitrogen sounds like just the kind of excitement I need in my life right now. Hopefully, I won't need the torch, but in case I do, I'll be sure to don whatever protective gear I can find. After I posted I started wondering if a monkey wrench might work as well? Seem to recall using one for some large nut rusted to a pipe somewhere in the distant past. The leverage was nice. Might even be able to borrow an exceptionally large one, too :) Never knew just how tough an ocean environment can be. It's brutal. Mike > > > > Which nut? > > > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Mike Generally the seizing due to rust is stronger than the small bit of steel that's exposed in the top of the nut, so it doesn't matter what tool you have on it. That's why the heat is necessary. SignatureMike F. Thornhill (near Toronto), Ont. Replace tt with t (twice!) and remove parentheses to email me directly. (But I check the newsgroup more often than this email address.) As an addition - Volvo shock kits come without that nut, and you'll want a new one. And they're incredibly expensive ($30+) from the Volvo dealer. Most aftermarket shock kits come with that nut - keep that in mind when you're pricing shocks SignatureMike F. Thornhill (near Toronto), Ont. Replace tt with t (twice!) and remove parentheses to email me directly. (But I check the newsgroup more often than this email address.) > As an addition - Volvo shock kits come without that nut, and you'll want > a new one. And they're incredibly expensive ($30+) from the Volvo [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Replace tt with t (twice!) and remove parentheses to email me directly. > (But I check the newsgroup more often than this email address.) Your previous post was grim news. I was hoping more leverage would offset the hold the rust had on the threads. Wishful thinking considering the bushings were hell to remove - except the right trailing arm bushing. It had been installed off by 90 degrees, so it was elliptical and just slid out clean. Been picking up one of the new springs and taking one of the new Bilstein's out of the box every so often to just hold 'em and feel the love. <sniffle>It's so bittersweet - they need a home. Checked the threads on the shock a few times just to make sure I was turning the old nut in the right direction. Glad you said something. Would have been bummed to have removed the old setup only to find I couldn't put it together until I picked up a new nut. Especially since I usually end up installing parts when most stores are closed. Mike > Been picking up one of the new springs and taking one of the new Bilstein's > out of the box every so often to just hold 'em and feel the love. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > new nut. Especially since I usually end up installing parts when most > stores are closed. The Bilsteins that I bought came with a pair of retaining nuts to hold the inserts into the housings plus a special tool for fitting them. These nuts screw into the standard struts but are completely different shape to the originals, as evidenced by the special tightening tool. The reason for the different nuts is that the original struts are a solid bar at the top, so the original nuts have a small diameter hole for that. The Bilsteins are an "inverted" shock, so the top is a bigger diameter and the retaining nuts have a seal that runs on the outside of the demper body. Unless the Bilsteins you've got are totally different to the ones I've got, you won't need the original nuts. Get the strut out of the car, pull the spring off and hold the bottom of the strut very securely and you should be able to remove the original nuts using stilsons. The goal is to remove the nuts without damaging the strut tube. I'd bought a proper "C spanner" to undo the original nuts on the struts before I realised that I wouldn't need that $18 spanner or the original nuts with the new struts. :-( It and a rubber mallet made getting the old nuts undone very easy, though. :-) I also bought a set of deep offset ring spanners and got a mate to machine a piece of hex bar to fit over the flats on the top of the strut rod (inside the top bearing) before I realised that the Bilsteins use an allen key and the aftermarket strut top bearings that I should have fitted eliminate the recessed nut problem! I still have to change those top bearings... At least the ring spanners are useful. :-) SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace. I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. > > Been picking up one of the new springs and taking one of the new Bilstein's > > out of the box every so often to just hold 'em and feel the love. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace. > I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. Thanks for the info, Athol. I was looking at the strut last time thinking I was going to have to replace both after I went after them with a sawzall. At least if I have them out of the car, I probably won't slip and hit my head again. I was going to buy the special tools, but the shocks came before I started the work so I compared the nut on the car versus the nut on the Bilstein. They weren't even close so I figured I'd use the best tool available and not worry about any small scratches that I put on them while installing. Good thing you can use the ring spanners. Since I started working on the Volvo I've pulled out a couple of specialty tools that I bought and have carried around for 20+ years without ever using. Can't help but laugh a little whenever one of them comes out. When I asked the newsgroup, I figured I'd get a concensus answer. Instead, I'm now armed with three different approaches to removing the nut. It's coming off the next time I try, so I'm pretty excited. Bought a 15/16 box-end wrench and modified following the directions posted on Dave Shannon's website, so it'll come in handy whenever I ever have to pull the top nut. Mike > I was going to buy the special tools, but the shocks came before I started > the work so I compared the nut on the car versus the nut on the Bilstein. > They weren't even close so I figured I'd use the best tool available and > not worry about any small scratches that I put on them while installing. My Bilsteins came with an installation tool for their nuts. It is a piece of gold passivated (coloured) zinc plated steel about 3mm thick. It is a very neat fit around the nut, with two protrusions in the inside that lock into the notches on the nut. On one side of the plate, there is a piece sticking out with a 1/2" square hole to put the 1/2" drive ratchet and then torque wrench into. IIRC, the plate is labelled Bilstein and has the torque specification marked on it. I was under the impression that this tool came with every pair of Bilsteins for a Volvo... > When I asked the newsgroup, I figured I'd get a concensus answer. Instead, > I'm now armed with three different approaches to removing the nut. It's > coming off the next time I try, so I'm pretty excited. Bought a 15/16 > box-end wrench and modified following the directions posted on Dave > Shannon's website, so it'll come in handy whenever I ever have to pull > the top nut. If they are available, I'd seriously suggest replacing the top bearings with aftermarket items. The Noltec ones I've got don't recess the top nuts to anywhere near the same extent as the originals. I just need to get around to changing them... Ditto for fitting the pair of whiteline swaybars that are hanging on the shed wall! SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace. I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. > > I was going to buy the special tools, but the shocks came before I started > > the work so I compared the nut on the car versus the nut on the Bilstein. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I was under the impression that this tool came with every pair of Bilsteins > for a Volvo... That's so cool! But...this is the first I've heard of any tool shipping with the shocks. I'm going to have to check the boxes, but I don't remember seeing anything like what you describe. Guess I was on Santa's "Bad List" again...damn! > > When I asked the newsgroup, I figured I'd get a concensus answer. Instead, > > I'm now armed with three different approaches to removing the nut. It's [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > get around to changing them... Ditto for fitting the pair of whiteline > swaybars that are hanging on the shed wall! Good advice. I didn't have too many choices regarding the bearings. The rubber boot is dried and cracked and I've driven the car so hard, for so long, on and off-road, that I thought a new set was essential. Can't remember the brand I picked up, but I hope they have a similar configuration to those you describe. Then again, might have more coal in the stocking <shrug>. The bearings are in the box next to the shocks and springs. Walked by them a lot last weekend, but since it was a social weekend, wasn't able to work on the car...This weekend it just looks like rain, so might have to wait even longer. Thanks again and good luck with the bearings and sway bars. Dream about making improvements to the engine, tranny and suspension (performance sure is addictive), but until it's back to solid stock condition, have to maintain some discipline. Mike > -- > Athol > <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 > The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace. > I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. > Good advice. I didn't have too many choices regarding the bearings. The > rubber boot is dried and cracked and I've driven the car so hard, for so [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > wasn't able to work on the car...This weekend it just looks like rain, so > might have to wait even longer. In all seriousness, I'd suggest that you see if you can pick up a spare pair of struts. If you were intending to do wheel bearings, shocks, springs and top bearings, you could strip the spare struts down, do the whole lot on them then change them over in one go. If you're changing the ball joints and tie-rod ends at the same time, it's even easier. You could have the pair of new struts assembled with all of those parts ready to go. The changeover would involve disconnecting the brake lines, taking off the calipers and discs, unbolting the ball joints (3 nuts per side), screwing the tie-rod ends off and taking the strut top nuts off, changing the struts over then reassembling, bleed brakes and wheel align. Oh, the luxury of having spare cars lying in the yard. :-) The '78 finally went for scrap last week but I still have the 2 '82s and the '88. :-) SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace. I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. > In all seriousness, I'd suggest that you see if you can pick up a spare > pair of struts. If you were intending to do wheel bearings, shocks, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > finally went for scrap last week but I still have the 2 '82s and the '88. > :-) Prefab struts? Wow, is that a great suggestion! I'm going to look around for a new-used set of struts to see if I can pull it off. I am replacing most front-end components so it would be easier. Nice to be able to work at a bench for much of the assembly, too. If it's not cost-effective, will probably just end up taking each strut out to rebuild them off the car. Kind of the same, without the convenience of having the car available for errands. Three parts cars?! Man, that's some yard. I borrow a driveway to do my work so I have yard-envy. Mike > Prefab struts? Wow, is that a great suggestion! I'm going to look around > for a new-used set of struts to see if I can pull it off. BTW, 2-series Volvo struts come in at least 3 variants that I know of. The ones you want are 1981-on. Up to '80, they had smaller wheel bearings and stubs and a looser tolerance on the fit of the insert in the tube. I have an '80 model with the 350 chev in it, and I used '82 struts to upgrade them as part of the process. The ones you want are easy to identify - the nut retaining the wheel bearings has an integral washer instead of the separate nut and washer used on the earlier struts. I don't think that the strut housings changed again after '81. Oh, and the 3rd variant (in case you're wondering) is that the really early ones had the ball joint taper integral to the bottom of the strut rather than having the separate bottom piece bolted on with 4 bolts... > I am replacing > most front-end components so it would be easier. Nice to be able to work at > a bench for much of the assembly, too. If you're doing the lower control arm bushes, see if you can get spares of them at the same time. This gives you the luxury of being able to strip, clean and paint all of the parts before assembly. :-) > Three parts cars?! Man, that's some yard. I borrow a driveway to do my > work so I have yard-envy. LOL. I'm _down_ to 3 parts cars. It was 4 until recently. I found these old photos from when we had a concrete truck make a mess of the yard in wet weather putting down a slab behind the garage and a new driveway... It looks a little tidier now. :-) <http://cust.idl.net.au/athol/volvo/volvos.JPG> <http://cust.idl.net.au/athol/volvo/driveway.jpg> Oh, and the car roof right at the bottom of the 1st photo is not a Volvo. :-) Until I found these photos, which are from late June last year, I thought that I only bought the red parts car about 6 months ago! SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace. I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. Apologies for the delay responding. > > Prefab struts? Wow, is that a great suggestion! I'm going to look around > > for a new-used set of struts to see if I can pull it off. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ball joint taper integral to the bottom of the strut rather than having the > separate bottom piece bolted on with 4 bolts... Glad to hear this - reminds me to insist on the right set of parts. I think I started reading something that had similar detail, but I glazed over (it was probably 2am) and made a mental note to go back to it (didn't - out of sight, out of mind...) Fun to learn about the variations in engineering mods that have taken place over the years. Haven't had the time in the last week to look for a set, so I'm still hopeful that I can pick some up. > > I am replacing > > most front-end components so it would be easier. Nice to be able to work at [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > them at the same time. This gives you the luxury of being able to strip, > clean and paint all of the parts before assembly. :-) More great advice. Unfortunately, I recently spent a good day doing both sides. Thought it would take at most a couple of hours to replace the bushings. Majority of the time was spent cleaning the control arm and mounting bracket and prepping each for paint. Put one on late and a little wet. Figured I'd call it a learning experience (at least they have paint now) and see if I couldn't pick up a set to do right and install by end of summer. > > Three parts cars?! Man, that's some yard. I borrow a driveway to do my > > work so I have yard-envy. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > :-) Until I found these photos, which are from late June last year, I > thought that I only bought the red parts car about 6 months ago! Nice pics! Feed the envy :) I was just looking on ebay and realized that if I had the space, it'd be pretty easy to pick up some cheap 240's for parts or projects. Good thing I don't, cause I'd probably stack 'em like cordwood. Last paragraph is even funnier since my wife is constantly reminding me that something I think happened last week actually took place months or even years ago. Mike > Apologies for the delay responding. No need to apologise. This is usenet. :-) > More great advice. Unfortunately, I recently spent a good day doing both > sides. Thought it would take at most a couple of hours to replace the > bushings. Even if you have every single tool needed for the job, you need to allow double what you think that it will take unless you've done that particular job before. >> I'm _down_ to 3 parts cars. It was 4 until recently. I found these old >> photos from when we had a concrete truck make a mess of the yard in wet >> weather putting down a slab behind the garage and a new driveway... It >> looks a little tidier now. :-) >> <http://cust.idl.net.au/athol/volvo/volvos.JPG> >> <http://cust.idl.net.au/athol/volvo/driveway.jpg> > Nice pics! Feed the envy :) I just bought another vehicle. Not a Volvo this time... Might end up taking the V8 out of the Volvo and fitting it to the latest aquisition after building an even higher performance engine for the Volvo. :-) Mind you, if the current engine goes into the other vehicle, it'll be getting a turbo or two while I'm at it! SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace. I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. Hi Just slit a piece of rubber hose down the side and place over the shaft in case you slip with the jaws of the tool .After you tighten up the nut hit the side of the tube with a punch so the nut doesn't undo .About a quarter of an inch down from the top of the nut should do it .that way the thread slightly distorts and locks , but will still allow you to remove the nut if needed . >> Which nut? > > The cartridge retainer nut. In this case it's a large, thin, fragile, > rusted nut that would take an 2" wrench. I'm using large channel locks. A > good idea at the time, but probably not the best choice. The Billstein > replacement has the slotted-flange type retainer nut. > Hi Just slit a piece of rubber hose down the side and place over the shaft > in case you slip with the jaws of the tool .After you tighten up the nut hit > the side of the tube with a punch so the nut doesn't undo .About a quarter > of an inch down from the top of the nut should do it .that way the thread > slightly distorts and locks , but will still allow you to remove the nut if > needed . Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. If the nuts are tightened to the correct torque, they won't come loose. If you do the above staking procedure to a Bilstein strut, you're also risking distorting the bush and seal assembly that is integral to the nut. If this happens, you'll score the outside of the outer tube of the damper, stuffing it in very short order. If you use the Bilstein installation tool and tighten to the torque specified, they'll be fine. For the record, I certify vehicle modifications for a living. If someone came to me with a strut tube that had been hit with a punch, chisel, etc. in the manner described above, they'd be sent away to get another strut. SignatureAthol <http://cust.idl.com.au/athol> Linux Registered User # 254000 The state of infrastructure in New South Wales is a disgrace. I'm a Libran Engineer. I don't argue, I discuss. >I have some *very old* shocks up front on my '85 245. I've finished all >the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Thanks in advance for any help or advice, > Mike If the nut is accessible (sounds like it is) try this trick that has served me so well over the years. Clamp a pair of vise-grips on the nut, as hard as you can. This will elastically deform the nut so the threads are jammed, but at right angles the threads are forced apart. Hit it with penetrant (I hope you're using a real penetrating oil, and not WD-40) and give it a minute to soak in. Repeat with every pair of faces on the nut you can access. Bet it will come loose then. Mike > >I have some *very old* shocks up front on my '85 245. I've finished all > >the [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Mike Wow, cool trick, Mike! Thanks for the advice. Will try this before the monster monkey wrench. Mike > I have some *very old* shocks up front on my '85 245. I've finished all the > suspension work except for the front strut components. Over three different [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Thanks in advance for any help or advice, > Mike There's a hook deal special tool that slips around the strut housing and hooks through the sway bar eye. It's just 1/4" wire. It holds the strut at the perfect angle so that you can twist the assembly to where the caliper jams against the lower a-arm without starining the brake hose. After you heat the strut housing thread area just cherry all the way round, find a helper with another pair of channel locks or a pipe wrench that can counterhold the housing and gorilla twist the nut out. I've had a couple that still squawk on the way out even then. Get a good grip and turn with a steady motion. If you get too anxious and atheletic you can seriously bugger the threads on the strut housing. They are a very fine thread pitch and can make starting the new nut unbelievably, tediously, frustratingly difficult. You have to get the nut stared and run it all the way in and out a few times with tapping and fiddling around the thread area until you can remove the nut and start it easily by hand or you'll never get it started with the insert in place. I generally use a little never-seize on the threads going back in and pull thr nut tight. If the car lives in heavy road salt areas I'll spray some under coat around the joint before the boot goes back on. Makes the next replacement much easier. Bob SignatureThe goal when driving is to miss the maximum number of objects. > There's a hook deal special tool that slips around the strut housing and > hooks through the sway bar eye. It's just 1/4" wire. It holds the strut [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -- > The goal when driving is to miss the maximum number of objects. Cool post! Thanks, Bob. "Cherry red" is what I needed to hear. Figure it's all hardened steel and I'm not going to mess it up, but I have a track record of breaking the unbreakable. Been trying hard to contain my enthusiasm, in the old days, my impatience would have gotten the better of me by now. I sure don't want to mess up the threads on the strut housing (or damage the brake lines or anything else in the neighborhood.) Keep looking at the new nut that's going in to remind myself how fine they are (and make sure I'm turning the right direction - caught myself turning the tie-rod end locknut the wrong way for way too long recently - forgot it wasn't attached to the tie-rod end. Now I frequently double and triple check myself. Guess I'm practicing for senility.) Will look for the hook deal special tool and see if I can enlist somebody to help. When I was in California, I never had to contend with rust. Now that I've been in NY for some years, every nut is a knock-down, drag-out fight to loosen. Been eye-opening. I wrote most of this note before I ran out last night to work on the car. Figured I had a couple of hours, so I'd change the seals on the fuel injectors since they sound like they're leaking like sieves. Got set up, sized the right tools, turned the nut holding the fuel line in place a half-turn and the fuel line snapped. "Um, I'd like those 3 seconds back, please?!" Forgot the penetrating oil. Guess I need some fuel lines... Mike |
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