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Car Forum / Volvo Cars / September 2006Synthetic oil in an 850 with 150K miles
I have a 1995 850 wagon with about 160K miles. At about 150K miles, a mechanic in a local repair shop recommended I switch to synthetic oil because of the age and mileage on the vehicle. I did start to use synthetic and have since change the oil 3 times (i.e. every 3000 miles). I now see oil stains on the garage floor. Several thread in this newsgroup mention that synthetic oil can cause leaks in older cars. If the synthetic oil is causing my apparent leak, will changing back to regular oil stop the leak? What is it about synthetic that causes the leak in older cars? > I have a 1995 850 wagon with about 160K miles. At about 150K miles, a > mechanic in a local repair shop recommended I switch to synthetic oil [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What is it about synthetic that causes the leak in older cars? It's the high-detergent action, which dissolves varnish and sludge on seals, and sometimes the seals themselves, if the rubber isn't compatible. The usual approach is to replace all the affected seals, but you could try removing the synthetic oil and switching to 'high mileage' oil, which will cause the seals to swell. This may or may not fix the problem, but if it does it probably won't be a permanent fix. If you plan to keep the car, then since the damage is already done you may want to spring for new oil seals and then keep using synthetic - it should prevent the lifters from sticking, anyway. "mjc13" wrote: > ... If you plan to keep the car, > then since the damage is already done you may want to spring for > new oil seals and then keep using synthetic - it should prevent > the lifters from sticking, anyway. Regular oil changes with an oil that SH or current additives all you need to "keep the lifters from sticking". Synthetic oil in and by itself is not needed to prevent valves from sticking - and I have an 83 Volvo 240GL, an 83 Plymouth Voyager, a 96 Volvo 850, and a 1954 Case D tractor to illustrate my point. Ken, Canada > "mjc13" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ken, Canada I was referring to a specific, known issue with the first couple of years the Volvo 850 was produced. The oil passages in the head were/are very small, and for the first couple of years there is a fairly high rate of failure for the hydraulic lifters. But hey, this is usenet, so one has to expect gratuitous abuse! > I have a 1995 850 wagon with about 160K miles. At about 150K miles, a > mechanic in a local repair shop recommended I switch to synthetic oil > because of the age and mileage on the vehicle. Go back to conventional oil, preferably one of the high mileage formulations like Valvoline MaxLife, Castrol High Mileage, etc. I used to think that this was an old wives tale, but I have seen the problem myself when trying to put synthetic oils, especially Mobil-1, into older vehicles. John Synthetic oil is an excellent way for the poor (ha ha) oil companies to extract money from our fat (ha ha) wallets. There is no documented evidence that cars that use it have any better reliability. Sure it is better, but replacing all the copper wiring with gold is better also. But the bottom line is are there any real benefits. So far there are none and as has been mentioned here there are many problems. Following the manufacturers recommendations is all that is necessary, in fact is more than necessary.  SignatureCheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA, USA Owned '67,'68,'71,'74,'79,'81,'87,'93,'95 & '01 Volvos. The '67,'74,'79,'87,'95 and '01 through European Delivery. http://home.earthlink.net/~rotarians/volvo.html I would be interrested in your data source used for this conclusion. I would have thought that the higher "breakdown temperature" of synthetic oil would have been particularly beneficial for turbos, as the oil would not tend to coke on the high speed - high temperature bearings. Thanks in advance for any data sources you can provide. > Synthetic oil is an excellent way for the poor (ha ha) oil companies to > extract money from our fat (ha ha) wallets. There is no documented [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the manufacturers recommendations is all that is necessary, in fact is > more than necessary. > I would be interrested in your data source used for this conclusion. I > would have thought that the higher "breakdown temperature" of synthetic oil > would have been particularly beneficial for turbos, as the oil would not > tend to coke on the high speed - high temperature bearings. > > Thanks in advance for any data sources you can provide. You missed the point of my post. Synthetic oil is sold on the basis of laboratory tests. It is never sold on the basis of real world use in cars. Sure people say that they used it and had no problems, but I can say that about using the factory recommended oils, filters and changes. The truth is there is no field data supporting the use of synthetic oil based upon and A/B comparison with manufacturer recommended maintenance. None. If they had it they would use it unless it wasn't favorable. If you don't want oil to coke, then use non-coking oil like used in motorcycles. Cars don't need it. I use it in my garden tractor since, like a motorcycle, it is an air cooled engine. If I don't use non-coking oil in my garden tractor, the oil is like tar when I drain it. SignatureCheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA, USA Owned '67,'68,'71,'74,'79,'81,'87,'93,'95 & '01 Volvos. The '67,'74,'79,'87,'95 and '01 through European Delivery. http://home.earthlink.net/~rotarians/volvo.html >>I would be interrested in your data source used for this conclusion. I >>would have thought that the higher "breakdown temperature" of synthetic oil [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > like a motorcycle, it is an air cooled engine. If I don't use > non-coking oil in my garden tractor, the oil is like tar when I drain it. You want some real-world support? I am the original owner of a 1986 Honda Civic Si. This 1.5 liter engine, and the one after it, both have a reputation for starting to burn serious oil after about 120k miles, even with regular valve adjustment. I've run it mostly on synthetic since it was broken in, and while I get a puff of blue smoke from draindown past the valve seals if I let it sit for a few days, it doesn't use an appreciable amount of oil, and doesn't produce blue smoke while running. It has about 143k miles on it. Not enough? I also have an '81 Suzuki GS850 that I've owned since '89, and I use full synthetic in that. Aside from doing a gasket replacement because of weeping (not seriously leaking) oil about 15 years ago, the bike also uses no oil at 25 years old and 26k miles. Both engines have been run very hard on occasion, although not that much in later years. I'm hardly a die-hard synthetic oil fan, especially for Volvo Red Block engines - I usually tell people to avoid it. But that isn't the same as saying that it has no benefits when used from the beginning. If you have cleaned a number of oil drain pipes from turbos, then you appreciate the difference between synthetic and regular oils. Jens > >>I would be interrested in your data source used for this conclusion. I > >>would have thought that the higher "breakdown temperature" of synthetic oil > >>would have been particularly beneficial for turbos, as the oil would not > >>tend to coke on the high speed - high temperature bearings. > >> > >>Thanks in advance for any data sources you can provide. > If you have cleaned a number of oil drain pipes from turbos, then you > appreciate the difference between synthetic and regular oils. > > Jens Personally I am sold on synthetics for turbo charged cars, cars which see very cold temperatures and cars which see very high temperatures. Also for engine designs where sludge has been an issue such as certain Toyotas. John "mjc13" <"mjc13"@verizon.net> wrote: > You want some real-world support? I am the original owner of > a 1986 Honda Civic Si. This 1.5 liter engine, and the one after it, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > oil at 25 years old and 26k miles. Both engines have been run > very hard on occasion, although not that much in later years. These are anecdotal stories and don't prove a thing. I drive my Volvos 175,000 mile now and never have a puff of smoke or any oil usage and I just use the Volvo recommended oils, filters, and intervals (which are 7,500 miles and 10,000 miles. But neither of us is proving anything. A laboratory comparison would take identical vehicles and run them to death under identical conditions using the recommended changes and filters. This would prove something, but anecdotal stories are just that. In order to justify the use of synthetic oil, it needs to either provide longer engine life or provide the same engine life with extended change intervals. It has not been shown to do either. SignatureCheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA, USA Owned '67,'68,'71,'74,'79,'81,'87,'93,'95 & '01 Volvos. The '67,'74,'79,'87,'95 and '01 through European Delivery. http://home.earthlink.net/~rotarians/volvo.html >Synthetic oil is an excellent way for the poor (ha ha) oil companies to >extract money from our fat (ha ha) wallets. There is no documented >evidence that cars that use it have any better reliability. Sure it is >better, but replacing all the copper wiring with gold is better also. Not to nitpick, but what would be better about gold wiring? > Not to nitpick, but what would be better about gold wiring? Because of its high electrical conductivity and resistance to corrosion and other desirable combinations of physical and chemical properties, gold emerged in the late 20th century as an essential industrial metal, particularly as a thin plating on electrical card contacts and connectors. Relays that are for high currents have silver contacts and those for low voltages have gold contacts. Many micro-chips use gold internal wiring for its conductivity on very small cross-sections. The most common choices are aluminum and gold and gold is superior. Electrical resistivity are room temperature: Aluminum: 26.50 nano-ohms per meter Gold: 22.14 nano-ohms per meter Copper: 16.78 nano-ohms per meter Silver: 15.87 nano-ohms per meter So for precise instruments, gold is superior because of its very low contact resistance. For high current applications, silver is superior because of its high conductivity and moderate contact resistance. Copper and aluminum are not useable unless the connectors are exotic (not copper or aluminum) or the ends are plated. We all know about the problems of aluminum house wiring and copper is not a lot better. If you are using synthetic oil on an engine designed for conventional oil, you are changing the operation of the engine. Synthetic oils have smaller molecules than conventional motor oils. This means that it is not compatible with some engine designs. If the manufacturer doesn't recommend it, you use it at your own risk. If engines last perfectly well with conventional oil, there is no incentive to take this risk. SignatureCheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA, USA Owned '67,'68,'71,'74,'79,'81,'87,'93,'95 & '01 Volvos. The '67,'74,'79,'87,'95 and '01 through European Delivery. http://home.earthlink.net/~rotarians/volvo.html -----------snip ------------------ igns. If the manufacturer doesn't > recommend it, you use it at your own risk. If engines last perfectly > well with conventional oil, there is no incentive to take this risk. Hi all, I've found this thread to be very interesting. For the sake of argument, lets say that one has been using a blend in an older engine. What are the pros & cons of going back to a conventional oil ? Thanks, Perk (:>) SignatureNote --- My real email is perkatwavecabledotcom > -----------snip ------------------ > igns. If the manufacturer doesn't [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Perk (:>) The only pros are lower cost and less chance of leaks developing in the future. The risk of leaks depends on how long you're been using synthetic or syn blend; if a short time, then the risk of leaks developing is higher than if you've been using it for years. > For the sake of argument, lets say that one has been using a blend in an > older engine. What are the pros & cons of going back to a conventional > oil ? The pro is saving money. As far as the cons, who knows. Synthetic blend is really a poorly defined term and many "conventional" oils could call themselves a blend if they wanted to. In fact, the Connoco line of oils (sold as Union 76, Phillips 66, Connoco and Motorcraft) are all labeled synthetic blend. John > If engines last perfectly > well with conventional oil, there is no incentive to take this risk. So who here has had a B230F fail yet after regular oil maintenance with a synthetic? > > If engines last perfectly > > well with conventional oil, there is no incentive to take this risk. > > So who here has had a B230F fail yet after regular oil maintenance with > a synthetic? Unfortunately, that won't prove anything. There's good evidence that synthetic oil is superior to conventional oil in some ways. But what Stephen has been saying (I think) is that no-one has proved that these properties lead to longer engine life, on average, than conventional oil would in the same make of engine under identical usage conditions. As far as I know, no such tests have been done . . . but if they have, I hope someone will post a link or reference. Rick ] >> So who here has had a B230F fail yet after regular oil maintenance with >> a synthetic? >> > Unfortunately, that won't prove anything. In other words, no! You don't know anyone who reports increased engine wear or decreased life using synthetic oil! It does prove something -- it proves you are making conjectures without data! > So who here has had a B230F fail yet after regular oil maintenance with > a synthetic? So who here has had a B230F fail after regular oil maintenance with regular oil? Such reports are meaningless unless they are analyzed statistically.\ > It does prove something -- it proves you are making conjectures without > data! Precisely, you can't say something does something like extend engine life if there is no data. There is no data. I can tell you one thing, Mobil 1 is not recommended for aviation applications. That is straight from the Mobil 1 website. It does meet API tests and ratings, but so does regular oil. SignaturePardon my spam deterrent; send email to rhodyman@earthlink.net Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman > Precisely, you can't say something does something like extend engine > life if there is no data. There is no data. We're coming from different places. I'm looking for a compelling reason *not* to use synthetic oil. >>Precisely, you can't say something does something like extend engine >>life if there is no data. There is no data. > > We're coming from different places. I'm looking for a compelling reason > *not* to use synthetic oil. It's pretty clear that synthetic oil - maybe especially Mobil 1 - is more likely to cause leaks in older engines that have been run on conventional oil. Japanese cars seem less prone to these leaks, and Volvos more prone to them. I don't know about American cars. If you drive a Volvo, the closest you will get to a consensus (not very close!) is that turbos and early model 850's will likely benefit, and it probably isn't worth the risk in the other Volvo engines. The same seems to apply to synthetic blends. > It's pretty clear that synthetic oil - maybe especially Mobil 1 - is > more likely to cause leaks in older engines that have been run on > conventional oil. People can actually substantiate this, reporting leaks on their Volvo motors, clearly caused by switching to synthetic oil? Just how "clear" is it, and where are the data? Is it "clear" enough for a class action suit? >> It's pretty clear that synthetic oil - maybe especially Mobil 1 - is >>more likely to cause leaks in older engines that have been run on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Just how "clear" is it, and where are the data? Is it "clear" enough > for a class action suit? Do a search in this newsgroup. You will see a pattern of people buying a Volvo, - usually a 240 - switching it to synthetic because they want the best oil for it, and then getting leaking seals. It happened to me and to many others. I still recommend synthetic oil for the 850 with its hydraulic lifters and small oil passages, and for turbo engines, but for normally aspirated Volvo engines it doesn't seem to be worth the risk of leaks. No, not enough hard data for a class-action lawsuit, just years of observations, and personal experience. You can believe me or not, as you like. I won't have to buy you any oil seals. ;-) >> Just how "clear" is it, and where are the data? Is it "clear" enough >> for a class action suit? > > Do a search in this newsgroup. You will see a pattern of people buying > a Volvo, - usually a 240 - switching it to synthetic because they want > the best oil for it, and then getting leaking seals. Correlation is not causation, but strong evidence that these oils that are being heavily marketed to consumers for use in their high-mileage engines, would be interesting to confront the oil companies with. I also wonder this: Are seals worse than rings and cams? >>>Just how "clear" is it, and where are the data? Is it "clear" enough >>>for a class action suit? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I also wonder this: Are seals worse than rings and cams? There is no evidence that non-synthetic oils, used as directed and changed regularly, cause excessive wear. The one study I looked at showed the opposite: that in NYC taxi cabs, synthetic and non-synthetic oils performed the same. As others have noted, synthetic should provide better protection in extreme temps, but for normal driving - and especially in Volvo red block engines - you will see little or no difference in wear. But enough of this. No one's mind is going to change. > There is no evidence that non-synthetic oils, used as directed and > changed regularly, cause excessive wear. The one study I looked at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > But enough of this. No one's mind is going to change. I drive in an environment that routinely sees extremely high temperatures. This subject is genuinely of interest to me. People keep coming back to a conservative argument in favor of old-fashioned oil, that smells like what we call in the IT industry, "FUD." I believe you when you suggest there is nothing wrong with standard lubricants. I'm not trying to suggest that there needs to be a *problem* with them in order for synthetics to have merit. And I don't see synthetics as particularly expensive, either. According to your data, synthetic oil performs at least as well as standard, and no specific problems have been attributed to its use, aside from anecdotal reports of seal failure. > > Precisely, you can't say something does something like extend engine > > life if there is no data. There is no data. > > We're coming from different places. I'm looking for a compelling reason > *not* to use synthetic oil. The one reason not to use it is the added expense with no real benefit. I am looking for one reason to use it. Sure, it tests better in the lab, but no one has translated this to real world benefits. Not one. No one has mentioned that Volvo has permitted synthetic oils to be used in its cars made in 1981 and later if they meet the API Service specs listed by Volvo which in 1981 were SE-CC and SF-CC. However, Volvo has never recommended synthetic oils. This is per the owners manuals which are available on line. SignaturePardon my spam deterrent; send email to rhodyman@earthlink.net Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman > The one reason not to use it is the added expense with no real benefit. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA > http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman I use synthetic because it flows better when cold - keep a bottle of regular oil outside in the winter, beside a bottle of synthetic. My synthetic 5W40 gurgles when I shake the bottle at my typical winter temperatures, whereas the bottle of regular 5W30 does not. Synthetic also has higher heat resistance, so in my turbocharged cars, and air-cooled motorcycle, snow blower and lawnmower this higher heat resistance makes me feel like I'm protecting them better, even if regular oil has enough heat resistance for the temperatures reached. So there's 2 reasons - better protection when cold and easier cold starts, and it makes me feel like I'm doing something for high temperature protection. SignatureMike F. Thornhill (near Toronto), Ont. Replace tt with t (twice!) and remove parentheses to email me directly. (But I check the newsgroup more often than this email address.) > The one reason not to use it is the added expense with no real benefit. Synthetic oil is subjected to higher quality control standards; how's that for a benefit? > I am looking for one reason to use it. Sure, it tests better in the > lab, but no one has translated this to real world benefits. Not one. I am looking for a reason not to use it. Sure it is met with skepticism, but on one has translated this to real world risks. Not one. >> The one reason not to use it is the added expense with no real benefit. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I am looking for a reason not to use it. Sure it is met with > skepticism, but on one has translated this to real world risks. Not one. _____ There is a Mechanical Engineer in Bath, Maine who has rebuilt many Volvo D24T engines. His experience with Mobil-1 in these engines after an overhaul (using a 40,000 mile oil and filter change interval) is that after 100,000 miles of operation there is _no measurable wear_. I assume that his observations include crankshaft bearings and pistons/cylinders, cam shaft and valve guides. If you want more details, please let me know, and i will ask him. Based on his observations i switched my 1989 Volvo 240 Sedan (250,000 km) to Mobil-1 about 5 years ago. I have seen _no_ evidence of leaking seals. My son's 1986 Volvo 240 Wagon (465,000 km) likewise received Mobil-1 about 4 years ago. There has been _no_ sign of oil leaks. I changed the timing belt a month ago, and did not bother replacing the three front oil seals as everything was completely oil free and dry. The oil consumption of this engine was about 1 liter/1000 km. With Mobil-1 it is down to 1/4 liter/1000 km. I recently changed the oil after 40,000 km, and it was quite clean. More importantly, i also checked the throttle body (TB). It was also clean. Before the change to Mobil-1, i removed the TB and had to clean out a lot of gummy, brown deposit. In my experience, Mobil-1 is a superior product. The ability of the oil to cling to metal surfaces better than conventional dyno oil is an advantage during engine startups. Less wear will be the result. Remember that startups cause a lot of the wear in an engine. SignatureRegards / JCH Well presented - I'll give you that, but it does not establish a case for the use of gold wires! Contacts, yes, wires - copper is far better, cheaper and lighter, as your own numbers amply demonstrate! Cheers. Greg I started using synthetic oil in my wifes car at 187.000klm in mine at 135.000 klm neither use oil or leak oil both ar turbos My sons car using dino oil doesnt leak at 301.000klm all are red block engines Volvos . >I have a 1995 850 wagon with about 160K miles. At about 150K miles, a >mechanic in a local repair shop recommended I switch to synthetic oil [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What is it about synthetic that causes the leak in older cars? Use only fully synthetic as the mixes are a rip off .REAL synthetic means a clean engine no gunk build up and longer life for the engine ,as for a turbo its a must .The original synthetic did not have elastasizers in it which swell the seals slightly, now this is ADDED the oil is brilliant .With synthetic you need not change the oil as often so in this way you save on the higher costs JUST CHANGE THE FILTER AS USUAL .No doubt your engine is now cleaned out of all the rubbish and scum that dino oils create. Be patient and you will find all is ok.Provided you don't use castrol which many say is just a highly modified dino oil .I use Mobil one or Bp visco 5000. My neighbour changed to synthetic oil Mobil one and I did the change all was well till she went to the mechanic with a new container of Mobil one to put in the car he switched oils and you could feel the difference .HE HAD HER SYNTHETIC OIL STILL ON HIS SHELF IN THE WORKSHOP . >I have a 1995 850 wagon with about 160K miles. At about 150K miles, a >mechanic in a local repair shop recommended I switch to synthetic oil [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What is it about synthetic that causes the leak in older cars? BY THE WAY our three Volvos are high mileage cars and no oil leaks >I have a 1995 850 wagon with about 160K miles. At about 150K miles, a >mechanic in a local repair shop recommended I switch to synthetic oil [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What is it about synthetic that causes the leak in older cars? > >I have a 1995 850 wagon with about 160K miles. At about 150K miles, a > >mechanic in a local repair shop recommended I switch to synthetic oil [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >synthetic oil is causing my apparent leak, will changing back to regular > >oil stop the leak? I disolves buildups and makes gaskets and seals more vulnerable to leaking. Anything good at lubricating is good at leaking. There is a compromise there someplace. That is the reason for different viscosities and grades. SignaturePardon my spam deterrent; send email to rhodyman@earthlink.net Cheers, Steve Henning in Reading, PA USA http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman |
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