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Car Forum / Volkswagen / Air Cooled Volkswagen Cars / May 2008

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Beetle gas mileage

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Jeff DeWitt - 03 May 2008 22:28 GMT
With gas prices the way they are I'm seriously considering a Beetle to
drive to work most days and save my Jeep for when the weather is
seriously nasty.

I'm thinking a mid 70's Super Beetle but I expect a Standard would do
nicely too.

What sort of Beetles do you guys drive, about what gas mileage do you
get, and is there anything special I should look out for (good or bad)?

How rare are the sunroof cars?  What about AC?  I assumed AC and air
cooled Beetles just didn't go together but I see them from time to time
on eBay.

I saw one old Beetle with a BIG sunroof, what do you call that in a
Beetle and did they offer that after the early 60s?  Studebaker offered
the same roof (I believe made by the same company) and called it a
"Skytop", and it's a very nice feature.

Thanks!

Jeff DeWitt
John - 03 May 2008 23:30 GMT
Dont know what sort of mileage a Jeep gets but it probably should be
remembered that beetles etc were made when petrol was the least expensive
thing you could put in the car. Consequently the fuel economy was ordinary.
In my Type 3 I get about 27 mpg, my wifes 2.7 litre Sonata gets 38 mpg on a
trip. If you want top economy get some  little buzz box  from Asia.
                 Cheers
                  John
> With gas prices the way they are I'm seriously considering a Beetle to
> drive to work most days and save my Jeep for when the weather is seriously
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Jeff DeWitt
Jeff DeWitt - 04 May 2008 00:47 GMT
Thanks, my Jeep gets a pretty consistent 20/21 MPG... actually so does
my Studebaker truck as long as the overdrive is working.

I'm thinking about a VW because they are funky, cool, and I can fix
them.  DON'T want some little Asian blandmobile that practically takes a
degree in computer science and million dollars worth of test equipment
just to change the oil!

Jeff DeWitt

> Dont know what sort of mileage a Jeep gets but it probably should be
> remembered that beetles etc were made when petrol was the least expensive
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>>
>> Jeff DeWitt
Project Magnet #1 - 04 May 2008 04:30 GMT
> Thanks, my Jeep gets a pretty consistent 20/21 MPG... actually so does
> my Studebaker truck as long as the overdrive is working.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> degree in computer science and million dollars worth of test equipment
> just to change the oil!

Don't justify the purchase because of high fuel costs like your original
post was doing. If you want one and can afford it, buy it.

Les
$300 '76 VW, functionally ugly daily driver
dave AKA vwdoc1 - 04 May 2008 16:33 GMT
I was pulling a pretty consistent 32mpg out of my '76 Standard Beetle on the
highway, but I have a lead foot.  <g>
I can NOT get my '88 XJ 4.0l over 20mpg even with a light foot, so I drive
my '83 Audi 4000s (26mpg GTi engine) again with my lead foot. lol

One day I will start driving my '70 Beetle.  It has not been "driven" since
about 1993 or so, but it still starts and drives.
Saving it for my daughter but with these gas prices..................hmmmm

If the Beetles get under 20mpg something just ain't right!  I think my FI
'76 Beetle got the best mileage of all my Beetles, '67 Conv, '66 Std and I
forget the others since I did not restore them.
Signature

later,
dave
(One out of many daves)

>> Thanks, my Jeep gets a pretty consistent 20/21 MPG... actually so does my
>> Studebaker truck as long as the overdrive is working.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Les
> $300 '76 VW, functionally ugly daily driver
Jan Andersson - 04 May 2008 23:49 GMT
> I can NOT get my '88 XJ 4.0l over 20mpg even with a light foot,

That's what I have... 87. Non-high output too. Factory MPG rating was
somewhere around 18-19.
Jeff DeWitt - 05 May 2008 03:35 GMT
>> I can NOT get my '88 XJ 4.0l over 20mpg even with a light foot,
>
> That's what I have... 87. Non-high output too. Factory MPG rating was
> somewhere around 18-19.

Mines a 96 HO, 5 speed, 2 door and 2wd. Pretty consistant 20-21 MPG and
my size 14 foot isn't light.

It's fun to drive and the best car I've ever had (about 375,000 on it
now), and I'm NOT going to replace it as my daily driver with some
boring little Asian POS!
LeRoy Prosic - 07 May 2008 01:22 GMT
Let,s get back to air cooled V/W,s ?
What can be expected from the auto-stick ?
>>> I can NOT get my '88 XJ 4.0l over 20mpg even with a light foot,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> now), and I'm NOT going to replace it as my daily driver with some boring
> little Asian POS!
dave AKA vwdoc1 - 07 May 2008 03:06 GMT
> What can be expected from the auto-stick ?

Less gas mileage usually!  ;-)
Jeff DeWitt - 07 May 2008 04:58 GMT
>> What can be expected from the auto-stick ?
>
> Less gas mileage usually!  ;-)

Can someone explain the logic of those things?  I've never driven one
but isn't it like a stick shift with a torque converter instead of a
clutch?  Seems to me it's got all the disadvantages of a stick and an
automatic with none of the advantages of either.

Thanks,

Jeff DeWitt
dave AKA vwdoc1 - 07 May 2008 21:39 GMT
Kinda a hybrid between an automatic and a stick shift.
YES it has a clutch that is operated by a vacuum system controlled by some
electrical switches and solenoids.
So you have to shift into the "gear" that you want but the torque converter
allows the transmission to stay into gear while at a stop even with the
clutch engaged.

Just put it in Driving Range 1 and drive all around the city without
shifting any gears nor having to use a clutch pedal.
Drive without shifting!
Or have fun and shift it from Driving Range Low, then 1, then 2.  You can
even hold the shifter in Low, rev the engine some and let that shifter go
and burn some rubber at the rear tires.
Drive one if you can still find one.  ;-)

Some even had a Parking selection that would stop the vehicle from rolling.

>>> What can be expected from the auto-stick ?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Jeff DeWitt
Jeff DeWitt - 08 May 2008 02:43 GMT
> Kinda a hybrid between an automatic and a stick shift.
> YES it has a clutch that is operated by a vacuum system controlled by some
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>
>> Jeff DeWitt

Ahh, that makes a lot more sense, so it had both a torque converter AND
a clutch?  So does that mean the clutch locks up so you don't get
slippage when driving along in high gear?  Like a modern lockup torque
converter or a 50-51 Studebaker automatic (I HAD to throw that part in <G>)
dave AKA vwdoc1 - 08 May 2008 03:28 GMT
>> Kinda a hybrid between an automatic and a stick shift.
>> YES it has a clutch that is operated by a vacuum system controlled by
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> when driving along in high gear?  Like a modern lockup torque converter or
> a 50-51 Studebaker automatic (I HAD to throw that part in <G>)

I think that the torque converter allows slippage all of the time and it
does not "lock-up".  :-(
But I am not sure about this.
Jan Andersson - 04 May 2008 02:01 GMT
My Jeep gets 17-18mpg on the highway..... a stock or near stock beetle
should easily get over 25mpg :D

Jan

> Dont know what sort of mileage a Jeep gets but it probably should be
> remembered that beetles etc were made when petrol was the least expensive
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>>
>> Jeff DeWitt
ngt@doe.carleton.ca - 04 May 2008 01:57 GMT
In my long experience the Beetle can deliver quite good fuel economy
(up to 7 liters/100 km or about 32 miles per US gallon) in urban
driving.  That’s reasonably competitive with many Asian econoboxes.
The car is quite light by modern standards (thanks in part to the
extremely light engine) which helps reduce fuel consumption in stop-
and-go driving.  The engine warms up very rapidly because it lacks the
thermal mass of a liquid coolant system.  Fuel economy falls off at
highway speeds due to relatively poor aerodynamics.  Also, the load
imposed on the engine by the cooling fan is significant.  Of course a
carbureted Type1 engine will always be at a disadvantage compared to a
modern fuel injected engine with mixture controlled by an oxygen
sensor in the exhaust.  It’s interesting to speculate what fuel
economy would result if a fuel injected Type 1 engine (used from’75 on
in North America) were retrofit with a feedback mixture control system
using an oxygen sensor.  I doubt this experiment has ever been tried.
It’s worth noting that in the early ‘70's fuel injected Type 3 and
Type 4 Volkswagens were amongst the most efficient vehicles
available.  I would guess the Type 3 squareback would have
considerably less aerodynamic drag than a Type1 at highway speeds.

The real economy in driving a Beetle is the elimination of
depreciation and the dramatic reduction in repair costs (assuming you
do your own repairs).  These are still higher costs than the cost of
fuel.  Parts are still readily available by mail order and are far
less expensive than those for a typical Asian econobox.

Finally, I think most would agree the basic Beetle (torsion bar front
suspension) gives fewer problems and has higher value than the
Superbeetle (McPherson strut front suspension).

Garry
‘74 DP1600 basic Beetle
Project Magnet #1 - 04 May 2008 04:34 GMT
<snip>

> Finally, I think most would agree the basic Beetle (torsion bar front
> suspension) gives fewer problems and has higher value than the
> Superbeetle (McPherson strut front suspension).

Yes, but when the time comes to replace ball joints, have fun... I ended
up using this guy's method on the first 3, still need to finish up in
the morning so I can swap in the cut and turned beam...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PZLxPyRdAbY

Easier than pressing them out if you don't have the correct ball joint
press.

Les
John - 04 May 2008 09:27 GMT
You are right about the Fuel Injected T3,s. Had one for ~ 4 years and on a
trip economy
was about about 38 mpg. There seemed to be some suspicion the injection made
engine run too
lean with head cracking seemingly an issue ( more so than usual I mean!).
The response down in Aust was to
disconnect the air temp sensor in the inlet manfold which made engine run a
little richer.
On an aside there was some discussion a while ago on cleaning the air
cleaners on T3,s.
Decided to do it today with some great degreaser I scored from work. Took
the grease off
all right, along with all the bloody paint. Bugger.
                    John

> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> Les
Karls - 05 May 2008 14:23 GMT
Mexibeetles have excellent fuel economy. Fuel injected, O2 and CHT
sensors, hydraulic lifters and all the bells and whistles. Great AC
system too and they sell an hydraulic clutch system that looks stock.
I used to have a '98 that gave about 37 mpg in the city (and there are
lots of stop lights here). Don't know if they can be imported to the
US.

Karls

On May 3, 8:57 pm, n...@doe.carleton.ca wrote:
> In my long experience the Beetle can deliver quite good fuel economy
> (up to 7 liters/100 km or about 32 miles per US gallon) in urban
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Garry
> ‘74 DP1600 basic Beetle
dave AKA vwdoc1 - 06 May 2008 01:22 GMT
I have seen a couple of Mexibeetles here around the Chicago area.

Mexibeetles have excellent fuel economy. Fuel injected, O2 and CHT
sensors, hydraulic lifters and all the bells and whistles. Great AC
system too and they sell an hydraulic clutch system that looks stock.
I used to have a '98 that gave about 37 mpg in the city (and there are
lots of stop lights here). Don't know if they can be imported to the
US.

Karls
ngt@doe.carleton.ca - 07 May 2008 02:29 GMT
That's remarkably good fuel economy.  I wonder if any of the usual
mail order VW parts houses are selling this complete system in the US
or Canada (a quick search didn't reveal any).  The cost would no doubt
be high, but given the rapidly rising price of fuel it might be worth
considering.  Longblock engines from the Mexican factory are imported
here, so I don't see why the fuel injection system couldn't be.

Garry

> Mexibeetles have excellent fuel economy. Fuel injected, O2 and CHT
> sensors, hydraulic lifters and all the bells and whistles. Great AC
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Karls
dave AKA vwdoc1 - 07 May 2008 03:08 GMT
I think someone had modified a Rabbit FI system to work on an air-cooled
Beetle engine.  Not sure how well it worked, but the FI parts should be
readily available.  I only see a problem with getting those fuel injectors
in the manifolds.

> That's remarkably good fuel economy.  I wonder if any of the usual
> mail order VW parts houses are selling this complete system in the US
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>
>> Karls
Anthony W - 07 May 2008 04:07 GMT
> I think someone had modified a Rabbit FI system to work on an air-cooled
> Beetle engine.  Not sure how well it worked, but the FI parts should be
> readily available.  I only see a problem with getting those fuel injectors
> in the manifolds.

I seem to recall a flurry of talk about using the Bosch CIS system from
the Rabbit on the air cooled engines.  I was planning to do that
conversion on my Baja.  I've heard that it works well.

Tony
P.J.Berg - 14 May 2008 00:37 GMT
> I think someone had modified a Rabbit FI system to work on an air-cooled
> Beetle engine.  Not sure how well it worked, but the FI parts should be
> readily available.  I only see a problem with getting those fuel  
> injectors
> in the manifolds.

I have seen end casting with injector bosses readily available. Try  
CB-Performance or shops alike.

The cheap version is to drill the end castings and simply glue inn the  
injectors.
A person I know retrofitted a complete T3 system on a T1 this way many  
years ago(In his Oval).
The system was adjustable by simply turning a screw, cant remember on what  
component, but I would assume fuel pressure related.

J.

>> That's remarkably good fuel economy.  I wonder if any of the usual
>> mail order VW parts houses are selling this complete system in the US
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>>
>>> Karls

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Komet17 - 04 May 2008 22:52 GMT
I've had a 73 Super for 13 years that I've never been able to get better
than 16-17 mpg, in town or on freeway.  Never have been able to figure out
why, and it's been regularly maintained.
Michael Cecil - 05 May 2008 00:09 GMT
>I've had a 73 Super for 13 years that I've never been able to get better
>than 16-17 mpg, in town or on freeway.  Never have been able to figure out
>why, and it's been regularly maintained.

You do release the parking brake, right?   ;)
Signature

Michael Cecil
http://macecil.googlepages.com/index.htm
1970 VW Beetle "Millennium Sparrow"

dave AKA vwdoc1 - 06 May 2008 01:50 GMT
>>I've had a 73 Super for 13 years that I've never been able to get better
>>than 16-17 mpg, in town or on freeway.  Never have been able to figure out
>>why, and it's been regularly maintained.
>
> You do release the parking brake, right?   ;)

Yeah how freely does it roll?
Alignment, tire pressure, brakes dragging, etc.?

Air filter clean, properly tuned, good power, etc.?
How is that dual vacuum advance on that distributor?  Did you use the stock
ignition timing or did you advance it some?
Maybe a problem with the carb and too much gas flows through especially when
the fuel pump is pumping faster.  Just a theory.  ;-)
What do the spark plugs look like after a good run?
Someone in the UK had a clever, and easy, way to see if your carb was jetted
correctly by just driving it certain ways.  I thought I had saved it but I
can not find it on this computer.  :-(
Does anyone remember this?  I think it involved driving the car and feeling
for surging as you moved the gas pedal.  Then you can determine if it was
running either rich, lean or just about right.  Also checking the plug
electrodes after some hard runs.
Jeff DeWitt - 05 May 2008 04:09 GMT
> I've had a 73 Super for 13 years that I've never been able to get better
> than 16-17 mpg, in town or on freeway.  Never have been able to figure out
> why, and it's been regularly maintained.

Obviously I'm no expert on Beetles but something is very wrong, it seems
 like it should do a LOT better than that.
Karls - 07 May 2008 13:23 GMT
BTW, the BIG sunroof is called a "ragtop"

Karls

> With gas prices the way they are I'm seriously considering a Beetle to
> drive to work most days and save my Jeep for when the weather is
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Jeff DeWitt
Jeff DeWitt - 08 May 2008 02:44 GMT
I saw a reference to that somewhere else, but the rest of the world
calls a convertible a ragtop.  Was VW just trying to confuse everyone? <BG>

Jeff DeWitt

> BTW, the BIG sunroof is called a "ragtop"
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>>
>> Jeff DeWitt
Al Adams - 08 May 2008 11:27 GMT
Where I lived in Connecticut in the '60s and '70s, we called a convertible a
ragtop. My 23 year old son, born in Vermont, calls a convertible a 'vert'
and a sunroof a ragtop. Go figure.

Al Adams

>I saw a reference to that somewhere else, but the rest of the world calls a
>convertible a ragtop.  Was VW just trying to confuse everyone? <BG>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>>>
>>> Jeff DeWitt
Pico - 09 May 2008 17:06 GMT
The ACVW is no great mileage champ and when you compare it to the lusty
comfort of a modern Asian wonder with surround sound and AC, it's really
pathetic. Discounting the fun factor, of course, and the joys of wrenching,
and pissing off insurance salesmen and just plain loving classic esthetics.

I'm getting the pristine '72 ready for sale. It will soon be time to market
it to the whacko "poseur green" software engineer types who work in a
cubicle, but carry a Leica M8, and spendy hiking stick, wear Swiss hiking
gear and mountain boots to work - and take a cab on rainy days so their
monster SUV doesn't get dirty.
Jeff DeWitt - 10 May 2008 01:30 GMT
> The ACVW is no great mileage champ and when you compare it to the lusty
> comfort of a modern Asian wonder with surround sound and AC, it's really
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> gear and mountain boots to work - and take a cab on rainy days so their
> monster SUV doesn't get dirty.

There is more to life than gas mileage, and if I was really nuts about
it I'd be looking for something like an old Rabbit diesel.

Plus I don't WANT just another boring Asian car, I've never had one and
don't plan to start now.
Pico - 10 May 2008 01:41 GMT
> There is more to life than gas mileage, and if I was really nuts about it
> I'd be looking for something like an old Rabbit diesel.

Man, that would be as boring as, uh, as... driving a Rabbit diesel.

> Plus I don't WANT just another boring Asian car, I've never had one and
> don't plan to start now.

Did you see that Chrysler is going to make the 2009 VW Bus? I'm not EVEN
stepping into that sh*tstorm but if it comes out I'm sure I will see plenty
on campus. Ya know it sucks - they don't even have hubcaps to steal.

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