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Car Forum / Volkswagen / Air Cooled Volkswagen Cars / November 2009What weight oil for cooler temperatures?
Hi all! What weight oil do you recommend in a stock Type I with outside temperatures ranging from 42 to 68 degrees F or 5.55 to 20 degrees Celsius ? This vehicle is used mostly for short 3 mile trips, to the grocery store usually once a week, going about 35 miles per hour/ 56.3 kilometers per hour. Several old timers keep telling me to keep using straight 30HD in it. Thanks in advance! Personally, I'd use a good quality 5w30 or 10w30. I don't think your low end temperatures are nearly cool enough for a 0w20 or 5w20. The only thing that even makes me slightly consider it is the fact that you say you take short trips under 35mph. However, even if your car does normally take short trips there is always the chance you'll need to take it on the road for longer trips at higher speeds. Therefore, I'll stick with the 5w30 or 10w30 recommendation. If your car has a full flow filtration system I'd think seriously about running one of the lower priced synthetics, say Pennzoil Platinum which can be found on sale at some really great prices. Pennzoil Platinum is a highly refined Group III (hydrocracked/hydroformed) oil that sticklers will contend is not a true synthetic (which is true since it does start with crude oil) but these modern Group III's give you 90% of the advantages of a full synthetic (Group IV or V) at a substantial savings in cost. Since the Type 1 motor has a vented crankcase you really can't go with the extended change intervals that a full synthetic will run even with a real oil filter in the system. If you don't have a full flow filtration system I'd probably stick with a good conventional oil such as Pennzoil in the yellow bottle and go with 2k to 3k mile oil change intervals. There is absolutely no rational today for using a straight weight oil. Modern multi-viscosity oils are vastly superior to the straight 30wt oils that were in common use when these cars were new. If I'm not mistaken even Muir in his "idiot book" recommends multi-viscosity oils and the multi-vis oils available today are vastly improved from the muti-vis oils that were available in the late 1960s/early 1970s when he wrote his book. > Hi all! > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Several old timers keep telling me to keep using straight 30HD in it. > Thanks in advance! Incidentally, making 3 mile trips under 35mph on the weekends in a Bug in cool weather is a sure way to build up moisture in the crankcase no matter what type of oil you use. One of the products of hydrocarbon combustion is water vapor. The water vapor from combustion will find it's way into the crankcase. A three mile trip (especially in cool weather) is not long enough to bring the engine and oil up to temperature such that the water will be driven off. Every short trip you'll build up a little more moisture which will condense in the crankcase. After a month of these short trips I expect that if you take the oil filler cap off you'll see a creamy, frothy foam on the bottom of the cap. This an emulsion of oil and water caused by these short trips not getting the engine up to operating temperature. This moisture will promote corrosion of internal engine parts and it can compromise the lubricating ability of the oil. You really need to periodically (say every other outing) run the car long enough to get the engine and oil good and hot. After a month of these short trips I expect that if you take > the oil filler cap off you'll see a creamy, frothy foam on the bottom of > the cap. This an emulsion of oil and water caused by these short trips [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > every other outing) run the car long enough to get the engine and oil > good and hot. It used to make the creamy, frothy foam on the bottom of the oil cap when I was using a 1.5 quart bolt on oil sump. But, it hardly ever does that. Would it be OK to drive it around the block until it idles at 900 rpm and then let it sit and idle on the driveway to let it warm up before driving it? ...thanks again! I don't think my oil would ever warm up just idling. The engine just isn't working hard enough. The flaps and thermostat help the heads warm up, but don't really do much for the oil. Might be different for a non-doghouse engine. Better to take it for a nice 30-minute drive where you can put some load on it. Max > After a month of these short trips I expect that if you take >> the oil filler cap off you'll see a creamy, frothy foam on the bottom of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > driving it? > ...thanks again! The aircooled Vw engine should not be left idling when cold at all.. Drive away after after 30 sec or so and drive it a modest load and revs until warm. This is per factory recommendations. I Have original Owners manuals from 1954, Aug.-66 and Aug.-72. They all list single-grade oils. If you choose a 20-30w or 20-40w of decent quality you are good to go. Originally listed is: Tropical areas: Hot season: SAE 40 Cold season: SAE 30 Moderate climates: Summer: SAE 30 Winter down to -15 Celsius: SAE 20w-20 Winter down to -25 Celsius: SAE 10w* Winter with temp. sustained below -25 Celsius use SAE 5w. *: Avoid long trips at high speed using SAE 10w above -10 Celsius and SAE 5w above -20 Celsius. Cut, paste and save. J.  SignatureUsing Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ >> After a month of these short trips I expect that if you take >>> the oil filler cap off you'll see a creamy, frothy foam on the bottom of [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Cut, paste and save. use as a guide, maybe, but not gospel... the newest information you have is based on what was available 37 years ago. >>> After a month of these short trips I expect that if you take >>>> the oil filler cap off you'll see a creamy, frothy foam on the bottom [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > is > based on what was available 37 years ago. Not gospel, hence personal advice of 20-30w and 20-40w. Merely listing the original recommendations. J. SignatureUsing Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > Not gospel, hence personal advice of 20-30w and 20-40w. > Merely listing the original recommendations. I understand that they are the original specs, just throwing it out there that oil technology has improved a little over the decades for those that may take the factory specifications(at time of manufacture) as gospel... > > Not gospel, hence personal advice of 20-30w and 20-40w. >> Merely listing the original recommendations. > > I understand that they are the original specs, just throwing it out there > that oil technology has improved a little over the decades for those that > may take the factory specifications(at time of manufacture) as gospel... There is another often(always?) overlooked issue with modern oil in an aircooled Vw engine. The single-grade oils where formulated to not keep contaminants/debris suspended in the oil, but to allow them to sink to the bottom of the sump. This should be considered when running a stock setup without an oilfilter. A modern oil will keep contaminants/debris suspended to be filtered of by the oilfilter, which you don't have on a stock engine.. If you look into tech manuals for the Citroën 2CV this is clearly lined out as the engine at a certain stage where fitted with an oilfilter, and they list different oils before/after this change. So in short, a stock Vw aircooled engine will se more wear running a modern detergent oil.. J. SignatureUsing Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > There is another often(always?) overlooked issue with modern oil in an > aircooled Vw engine. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > J. Not at all correct. All grades of oil started adding detergent in the 1950s and only non-detergent oils do not suspend contaminants. None of my VW books recommend non-detergent oil not even the often wrong idiots guide. Tony >> There is another often(always?) overlooked issue with modern oil in an >> aircooled Vw engine. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Tony The term detergent was wrongly used, yes. But I had already hit Send.. The bit about suspension of contaminants and debris is very much correct though. Jørn SignatureUsing Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ All good points, and let's not forget the modern additive packages. Flat tappet motors need lots of zinc (ZDDP) for anti-wear properties. The latest oils must be formulated to take into account cat. converters and have significantly lower levels of these additives. I have been around Porsche 4 cyl motors for over 40 years. Most guys I know only use a straight 30 HDEO in these engines, since the big-rig diesel motors still require these additives and don't have to contend with cat convtrs. Shell Rotella 30 or the Chevron equiv. are good HDEO's, and are dirt cheap at WalMart. Also, I realize that the latest craze is to go to ultra low-vis. oils. Fine if you have a modern engine, but I'd stick with the oil that was around when the VW/Porsche motors were designed. The oil is so cheap that you can change it at very short intervals. > All good points, and let's not forget the modern additive packages. > Flat tappet motors need lots of zinc (ZDDP) for anti-wear properties. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > that was around when the VW/Porsche motors were designed. The oil is > so cheap that you can change it at very short intervals. Yes, I know all about the Zink bit. The Diesel single grade(or multi grades for that matter) oils are the best bit for the aircooleds these days, unless you go with Rabys findings and his local/small producer. Cant remember the name now, the info can be found on his pages. Returning to the matter of flat tappets,(which are not flat..) a well broken-in engine will not suffer cam failures because of lack of zink. The tappets and cam have been hardened over so many years.. It applies to new engines built with a new cam and followers. I would still go with a single grade oil as these are less prone(these days according to some) to suspend contaminants and debris. Must admit I ran my engines on new formula oils myself before being made aware of the non filter vs. filter and suspension of contaminates. To cut short, non stock setup with filter you can use whatever type(not weight) you want, non filtered, go with tractor type oils. There is a reason for the large oil drain plate and screen at the bottom of aircooleds. J. SignatureUsing Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > Also, I realize that the latest craze is to go to ultra low-vis. > oils. Fine if you have a modern engine, but I'd stick with the oil > that was around when the VW/Porsche motors were designed. The oil is > so cheap that you can change it at very short intervals. you can't get the oil that was around back then... you even acknowledged that in your post. > > Also, I realize that the latest craze is to go to ultra low-vis. > > oils. Fine if you have a modern engine, but I'd stick with the oil [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > you can't get the oil that was around back then... you even acknowledged > that in your post. You can come pretty close...30wt HDEO. Again, these motors were designed when 30 and 40 wts were the norm. Just about all of the "typical" oils (i.e. Castrol GTX, HD, Valv. Penn, etc.) are nothing like they were even 5 years ago. Also, my experience with 4 & 6cyl Porsche motors is that some of the multi visc. oils, when heat cycled a couple of times in a comparitively high-temp aircooled motor, tends to revert to it's original state (a 20-50 for example, tends to revert to a 20 wt, losing a good part of its viscosity additives.) If you haven't, go to Bob is the Oil Guy . com and check out the thousands of posts on this specific subject. You'll find that a substantial number of the posters prefer a very low viscosity multiweight in a performance, aircooled motor - even under track conditions. Now look at the cars they list as owning: Saturns, Toyota pickups, etc. Always easy to give "cutting edge" advice when someone else is out there picking up pieces of a fragmented motor. Bottom line is the choice is up to the individual owner. At the risk of being oldfashioned, I'll stick with a one-piece crankshaft. >You can come pretty close...30wt HDEO. Again, these motors were >designed when 30 and 40 wts were the norm. Just about all of the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Bottom line is the choice is up to the individual owner. At the risk >of being oldfashioned, I'll stick with a one-piece crankshaft. yep, I've always said, folks are only "set in their ways" because it has "worked" for them... that said, i've run 10-30 castrol in my aircooleds for many years... and I, too, like my crankshafts in one piece...<G> There just doesn't seem to be a lack of toys for me to play with, one is a type one powered John Dear lawn tractor about half done its to much fun. and riding around on a Motocomp siutcase scooter. This one was shiped from Japan. stay tuned for our next exciting episode where we talk about how a 16 yr old hit me on the way to the lake. sorry wrong post what I get for typing while bidding for stuff on e-bay I use castrol diesel oil in my 64 and change it often On Nov 2, 9:50�pm, "Kafert...@aol.com" <Kafert...@aol.com> wrote: > There just doesn't seem to be a lack of toys for me to play with, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > stay tuned for our next exciting episode where we talk about how a 16 > yr old hit me on the way to the lake. > There just doesn't seem to be a lack of toys for me to play with, of course not, sanding blocks and spreaders come in bulk... >> > Not gospel, hence personal advice of 20-30w and 20-40w. >>> Merely listing the original recommendations. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > J. VW seems to have disagreed with this point of view. From the 1965 Type 1 Owner's Manual (page 36): HD oils are prescribed for the engine lubrication. HD oil is an oil with proven oxidation stability, bearing corrosion preventive properties and detergent-dispersant characteristics which tend to hold in suspension foreign contaminates which would normally deposit on engine parts. These foreign contaminates will drain out with the oil at the periodical oil changes. The detergent properties of HD oil will make the fresh oil darker after a short time of operation. This is quite natural and there is no reason whatsoever to change the oil earlier than called for in the Lubrication Chart. >>> > Not gospel, hence personal advice of 20-30w and 20-40w. >>>> Merely listing the original recommendations. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > reason whatsoever to change the oil earlier than called for in the > Lubrication Chart. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/65bug/page36_37.jpg > After a month of these short trips I expect that if you take > > > the oil filler cap off you'll see a creamy, frothy foam on the bottom of > > the cap. This an emulsion of oil and water caused by these short trips Soon, I will change over to Castrol 10 W30 for the cooler weather. ....thanks again! ---------------------------------------------------------- > > not getting the engine up to operating temperature. This moisture will > > promote corrosion of internal engine parts and it can compromise the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > driving it? > ...thanks again! I changed the oil in my '73 Beetle today. I used Castrol 10 w30. When I took the sump plate of four of the small studs came out. The holes are not stripped, the studs just came out with the nuts on the ends. I plan to get a new set of these studs, well at least 5, and red Loctite them in on the next oil change. ...thanks again! > > After a month of these short trips I expect that if you take > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > driving it? > > ...thanks again! I changed the oil in my '73 Beetle today. I used Castrol 10 w30. When I removed the sump plate, four of the six small studs came out. The holes are not stripped, the studs just came out with the nuts on the ends. I plan to get a new set of these studs, well at least 5, and red Loctite them in on the next oil change. By-the-way, I read somewhere that the zinc additive is mainly necessary for use with high revving performance engines. ...thanks again! > > After a month of these short trips I expect that if you take > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > driving it? > > ...thanks again! |
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