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Car Forum / Volkswagen / Air Cooled Volkswagen Cars / December 2003No thermostat
Hi, 6 years ago, I had a new 1600 engine put in my 66 after my original 1300 began losing oil pressure. It's a brazillian engine and I noticed today while removing the heat exchangers that there was no thermostat. I live in California, so it doesn't get that cold out here, but is there a way to get a thermostat installed in these engines. Just doesn't make any sense why there would be no thermostat. Thanks, John ...................After six years in a mild climate, I'd leave it alone and start saving for the next engine. Just be sure that the next one has the flaps, thermostat & tin that are OEM and functioning properly. I'd stay away from vendors and engine builders who don't think that thermostatically controlled flaps are necessary. I've heard all the arguments but I don't use them myself and have never missed them. I could go on but my advice is to "forget it". If VW of Brazil didn"t need it, you won"t either. href="http://community.webtv.net/weewiktype1/Dens1978Puma">Den's 1978 Puma</a> >From: weewiktype1 > I could go on but my advice is to "forget it". If VW of >Brazil didn"t need it, you won"t either. well then those living in brazil should not worry about it, but everyone living where they *did* come from the factory equipped with a thermostat and flaps should "worry" about it... ------------------- Chris Perdue *All opinions are those of the author of this post* "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html to reply take your PANTS off I did extensive research on using Thermostat and flap. First of all the Brazilian engines were running Fuel Injection. The computerized FI will properly warm up the engine. The same for the later model air cooled Porsches. On T-1 carb engine it tests are on the side for using them as to not using them. If you live in a warm climate all the time, you are running a basic stock engine, it should warm up fine. But even with thermo removed you should still have the flaps for cooling. Don't think the Germans forgot what happens once the flaps open. The flaps now have to direct the air to the right places to be the most effective. Like in 90 f plus temps. Not blow it all over the place. My engine designs all use thermos. Due to the fact I run T-4 engines in T-1 cars, the engine is hardly working so it needs a lot of help warming up. In temps below 40f my engine will never get over 120f oil temp without a thermo. Not good for engine life and gas mileage and the car will run rough. By the way the guy that did not have a thermo, did you have flaps and if so were they open? I would think if it came from the factory without a thermo, they would have something directing the air. This is a learning lesson for me also. Joe Cali - Next Generation-USA http://home.att.net/~nextgen > >From: weewiktype1 > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html > to reply take your PANTS off I had no flaps at all. I have the stud on the case, so I can put a thermostat on there. Anybody know if they still sell the flaps, thermo and connecting rod anywhere? Thanks, John > I did extensive research on using Thermostat and flap. First of all the > Brazilian engines were running Fuel Injection. The computerized FI will [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html > > to reply take your PANTS off Well JS the fact you don't have the flaps is logical. Some guys that don't use thermostats wire the flaps open. Because if you don't have a thermostat then the flaps will be closed and the engine will overheat and blow for sure. Seeing the engine is Brazilian and you do not have a thermo or flaps then I can assure the fanhousing came from the factory that way and the air is being directed correctly. Where I live in NY the thermo is a must have. Once I built an engine and for weeks tried to find out why it ran so bad. Well it was never reaching running temp. Another thing to note, engines earlier then 1972 run an 80c thermostat, while later engines run 90 c . The later cars had larger fans and need more time to warm up. Joe Cali - Next Generation -USA http://home.att.net/~nextgen > I had no flaps at all. I have the stud on the case, so I can put a > thermostat on there. Anybody know if they still sell the flaps, thermo and [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > > http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html > > > to reply take your PANTS off <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> Sorry to question you Joe, but if the thermostat is removed, the spring on the back <br>of the doghouse will open the flaps. <br> <p>Jim <blockquote TYPE=CITE> Because if you don't have a thermostat <br>then the flaps will be closed and the engine will overheat and blow for <br>sure. <p>Joe Cali - Next Generation -USA <br><a href="http://home.att.net/~nextgen">http://home.att.net/~nextgen</a> <p>"JS" <mcgyver66@hotmail.com> wrote in message <br><a href="news:ypqHb.30730$Vs3.11835@twister.socal.rr.com">news:ypqHb.30730$Vs3.11835@twister.socal.rr.com</a>... <br>> I had no flaps at all. I have the stud on the case, so I can put a <br>> thermostat on there. Anybody know if they still sell the flaps, thermo <br>and <br>> connecting rod anywhere? <br>> <br>> Thanks, <br>> John <br>> <br>> "Joe Cali - Next Generation-USA" <nextgen@worldnet.att.net> wrote in <br>message <br>> <a href="news:5fqHb.248366$Ec1.8630333@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net">news:5fqHb.248366$Ec1.8630333@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net</a>... <br>> > I did extensive research on using Thermostat and flap. First of all the <br>> > Brazilian engines were running Fuel Injection. The computerized FI <br>will <br>> > properly warm up the engine. The same for the later model air cooled <br>> > Porsches. On T-1 carb engine it tests are on the side for using them <br>as <br>> to <br>> > not using them. If you live in a warm climate all the time, you are <br>> > running a basic stock engine, it should warm up fine. But even with <br>> thermo <br>> > removed you should still have the flaps for cooling. Don't think the <br>> > Germans forgot what happens once the flaps open. The flaps now have to <br>> > direct the air to the right places to be the most effective. Like in 90 <br>f <br>> > plus temps. Not blow it all over the place. <br>> > My engine designs all use thermos. Due to the fact I run T-4 <br>> engines <br>> > in T-1 cars, the engine is hardly working so it needs a lot of help <br>> warming <br>> > up. In temps below 40f my engine will never get over 120f oil temp <br>> > without a thermo. Not good for engine life and gas mileage and the car <br>> will <br>> > run rough. <br>> > <br>> > By the way the guy that did not have a thermo, did you have flaps <br>and <br>> if <br>> > so were they open? I would think if it came from the factory without a <br>> > thermo, they would have something directing the air. This is a <br>learning <br>> > lesson for me also. <br>> > <br>> > Joe Cali - Next Generation-USA <br>> > <a href="http://home.att.net/~nextgen">http://home.att.net/~nextgen</a> <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> > "Chris Perdue" <bugninva@aol.comPANTS> wrote in message <br>> > <a href="news:20031227195320.14410.00001762@mb-m28.aol.com">news:20031227195320.14410.00001762@mb-m28.aol.com</a>... <br>> > > >From: weewiktype1 <br>> > > <br>> > > > I could go on but my advice is to "forget it". If VW of <br>> > > >Brazil didn"t need it, you won"t either. <br>> > > > <br>> > > <br>> > > well then those living in brazil should not worry about it, but <br>everyone <br>> > living <br>> > > where they *did* come from the factory equipped with a thermostat and <br>> > flaps <br>> > > should "worry" about it... <br>> > > ------------------- <br>> > > Chris Perdue <br>> > > *All opinions are those of the author of this post* <br>> > > "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" <br>> > > <a href="http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html">http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva /MAINPAGE.html</a> <br>> > > to reply take your PANTS off <br>> > > <br>> > <br>> > <br>> <br>></blockquote> </html> Jim, You are correct and thanks for correcting me. I got mixed up, it is the flaps that fail safe not the thermostat. But guys still wire them open, I guess just in case the spring fails, which is a good idea. The spring rots away and you have a blown engine. Joe Sorry to question you Joe, but if the thermostat is removed, the spring on the back of the doghouse will open the flaps. Jim Joe Cali - Next Generation-USA wrote: Because if you don't have a thermostat then the flaps will be closed and the engine will overheat and blow for sure. Joe Cali - Next Generation -USA http://home.att.net/~nextgen "JS" <mcgyver66@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ypqHb.30730$Vs3.11835@twister.socal.rr.com... > I had no flaps at all. I have the stud on the case, so I can put a > thermostat on there. Anybody know if they still sell the flaps, thermo and > connecting rod anywhere? > > Thanks, > John > > "Joe Cali - Next Generation-USA" <nextgen@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message > news:5fqHb.248366$Ec1.8630333@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > I did extensive research on using Thermostat and flap. First of all the > > Brazilian engines were running Fuel Injection. The computerized FI will > > properly warm up the engine. The same for the later model air cooled > > Porsches. On T-1 carb engine it tests are on the side for using them as > to > > not using them. If you live in a warm climate all the time, you are > > running a basic stock engine, it should warm up fine. But even with > thermo > > removed you should still have the flaps for cooling. Don't think the > > Germans forgot what happens once the flaps open. The flaps now have to > > direct the air to the right places to be the most effective. Like in 90 f > > plus temps. Not blow it all over the place. > > My engine designs all use thermos. Due to the fact I run T-4 > engines > > in T-1 cars, the engine is hardly working so it needs a lot of help > warming > > up. In temps below 40f my engine will never get over 120f oil temp > > without a thermo. Not good for engine life and gas mileage and the car > will > > run rough. > > > > By the way the guy that did not have a thermo, did you have flaps and > if > > so were they open? I would think if it came from the factory without a > > thermo, they would have something directing the air. This is a learning > > lesson for me also. > > > > Joe Cali - Next Generation-USA > > http://home.att.net/~nextgen > > > > > > > > > > > > "Chris Perdue" <bugninva@aol.comPANTS> wrote in message > > news:20031227195320.14410.00001762@mb-m28.aol.com... > > > >From: weewiktype1 > > > > > > > I could go on but my advice is to "forget it". If VW of > > > >Brazil didn"t need it, you won"t either. > > > > > > > > > > well then those living in brazil should not worry about it, but everyone > > living > > > where they *did* come from the factory equipped with a thermostat and > > flaps > > > should "worry" about it... > > > ------------------- > > > Chris Perdue > > > *All opinions are those of the author of this post* > > > "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" > > > http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html > > > to reply take your PANTS off > > > > > > > > > Hi.I think(surprise)that Joe Means on a T4.On mine I have the flaps held open because the thermostat is inop.Otherwise they flop closed.But on a T1 motor they default to the open position.Steve Sorry to question you Joe, but if the thermostat is removed, the spring on the back of the doghouse will open the flaps. Jim Joe Cali - Next Generation-USA wrote: Because if you don't have a thermostat then the flaps will be closed and the engine will overheat and blow for sure. Joe Cali - Next Generation -USA http://home.att.net/~nextgen "JS" <mcgyver66@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ypqHb.30730$Vs3.11835@twister.socal.rr.com... > I had no flaps at all. I have the stud on the case, so I can put a > thermostat on there. Anybody know if they still sell the flaps, thermo and > connecting rod anywhere? > > Thanks, > John > > "Joe Cali - Next Generation-USA" <nextgen@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message > news:5fqHb.248366$Ec1.8630333@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > I did extensive research on using Thermostat and flap. First of all the > > Brazilian engines were running Fuel Injection. The computerized FI will > > properly warm up the engine. The same for the later model air cooled > > Porsches. On T-1 carb engine it tests are on the side for using them as > to > > not using them. If you live in a warm climate all the time, you are > > running a basic stock engine, it should warm up fine. But even with > thermo > > removed you should still have the flaps for cooling. Don't think the > > Germans forgot what happens once the flaps open. The flaps now have to > > direct the air to the right places to be the most effective. Like in 90 f > > plus temps. Not blow it all over the place. > > My engine designs all use thermos. Due to the fact I run T-4 > engines > > in T-1 cars, the engine is hardly working so it needs a lot of help > warming > > up. In temps below 40f my engine will never get over 120f oil temp > > without a thermo. Not good for engine life and gas mileage and the car > will > > run rough. > > > > By the way the guy that did not have a thermo, did you have flaps and > if > > so were they open? I would think if it came from the factory without a > > thermo, they would have something directing the air. This is a learning > > lesson for me also. > > > > Joe Cali - Next Generation-USA > > http://home.att.net/~nextgen > > > > > > > > > > > > "Chris Perdue" <bugninva@aol.comPANTS> wrote in message > > news:20031227195320.14410.00001762@mb-m28.aol.com... > > > >From: weewiktype1 > > > > > > > I could go on but my advice is to "forget it". If VW of > > > >Brazil didn"t need it, you won"t either. > > > > > > > > > > well then those living in brazil should not worry about it, but everyone > > living > > > where they *did* come from the factory equipped with a thermostat and > > flaps > > > should "worry" about it... > > > ------------------- > > > Chris Perdue > > > *All opinions are those of the author of this post* > > > "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" > > > http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html > > > to reply take your PANTS off > > > > > > > > > > Well JS the fact you don't have the flaps is logical. Some guys that don't > use thermostats wire the flaps open. Because if you don't have a thermostat > then the flaps will be closed and the engine will overheat and blow for > sure. That's why the linkage spring is for, it pulls the flaps open in case the thermostat fails or falls off. I've never heard of a shroud that didn't have flaps from the factory. These engines are OLD, and have seem many a mechanic during their lives. Some smarter, some dumber. Jan > I did extensive research on using Thermostat and flap. First of all the > Brazilian engines were running Fuel Injection. The computerized FI will [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > without a thermo. Not good for engine life and gas mileage and the car will > run rough. John ain't the only guy who's found parts missing. Whilst under the Wonderbus yesterday, installing new heater boxes, I was studying all them metal protuberances and plumbing fixtures and pipes and wires and stuff, slowly becoming more familiar with all the stuff under and around the engine. I had, in one hand, the article from a recent VW Trends magazine which described the cooling bits (only a superficial article, I could use more information) and I was in the process of seeing if my thermostat was in operating condition when I discovered that I don't have one. Or the bracket. Or, near as I can tell, any of the linkage. I did see that I am missing the bottom covers that go under the cylinders. I suppose I should order some? I live in southern California, where the winters are mild but 90 - 100 degrees (F) summers are not uncommon. And the flaps: I'm not even sure where the darn flaps are supposed to be -- can some kind soul point me to some good pictures? Are they visible when the engine is in the bus?  SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) > I was in the process of seeing if my > thermostat was in operating condition when I discovered that I don't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > where the winters are mild but 90 - 100 degrees (F) summers are not > uncommon. ...............Geez.........This a damning testimonial for VW Paradise! >>I was in the process of seeing if my >>thermostat was in operating condition when I discovered that I don't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > ...............Geez.........This a damning testimonial for VW Paradise! Frankly I have not been real impressed. I had them do one job for me, installing the dual carbs, and they sent me home with a coil that fell out of its clamp on the way home, and a fuel line to the right carb so loose it was spraying fuel. I'm going to see how they set up the timing tomorrow. If I can figure out the cryptic notches and dimples on the crank pulley. SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) >Frankly I have not been real impressed. I had them do one job for me, >installing the dual carbs, and they sent me home with a coil that fell >out of its clamp on the way home, and a fuel line to the right carb so >loose it was spraying fuel. Hate to say, but I warned you. I have not heard anything good about that place. --Dan E >>Frankly I have not been real impressed. I had them do one job for me, >>installing the dual carbs, and they sent me home with a coil that fell [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Hate to say, but I warned you. I have not heard anything good about that place. > --Dan E Sometimes we gotta see for ourselves. Thanks for taking the time to issue the alert! SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) >And the flaps: I'm not even sure where the darn flaps are supposed to be >-- can some kind soul point me to some good pictures? Are they visible >when the engine is in the bus? reach behind the fan housing and see if there is a rod going sideways, joining 4 levers. SignatureEduardo Kaftanski | e@nn.cl | Freedom's just another word http://e.nn.cl | for nothing left to loose. | >>And the flaps: I'm not even sure where the darn flaps are supposed to be >>-- can some kind soul point me to some good pictures? Are they visible >>when the engine is in the bus? > > reach behind the fan housing and see if there is a rod going sideways, > joining 4 levers. Near the top? Near the bottom? Darn -- is there a good picture of what a T1 engine looks like from behind (forward side) with all the tin on it? SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) >> In article <RsqHb.6907$Vv2.3106736@news1.news.adelphia.net>, >> Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Darn -- is there a good picture of what a T1 engine looks like from > behind (forward side) with all the tin on it? http://www.geocities.com/janbugger/flaps.html Max >>> In article <RsqHb.6907$Vv2.3106736@news1.news.adelphia.net>, >>> Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > http://www.geocities.com/janbugger/flaps.html That's very useful! Thank you! I'll do some more poking around my tin. One thing that has always puzzled me. There are two ducts or hoses that take the air from the shroud on down to the heater boxes. On my shroud, the opening on the portside (left when facing forward) points straight sideways, not down/rearward like the starboard opening. There is a very poor picture at http://www.ariaaudio.com/VW.htm . The top picture. It's crooked, you need to put your right ear on your right shoulder to straighten things out. But if you look for a minute, you will see an odd protuberance that the air duct attaches to. It does not look like any of the photos I've seen of the shroud. SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) > One thing that has always puzzled me. There are two ducts or hoses that > take the air from the shroud on down to the heater boxes. On my shroud, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > protuberance that the air duct attaches to. It does not look like any of > the photos I've seen of the shroud. Not sure I'm seeing what you are describing. Are you saying that the "nozzle" on the shroud for the left-side air pipe is not the same as the one on the right? Max >> One thing that has always puzzled me. There are two ducts or hoses >> that take the air from the shroud on down to the heater boxes. On my [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > "nozzle" on the shroud for the left-side air pipe is not the same as the > one on the right? Correct -- thanks for providing some useful words. The nozzle on the righthand side points down and rearward, like all the pictures I've seen. But the one on the lefthand side points sideways -- as if it was firing out the lefthand side of the bus. I've added another picture to the bottom of that page. http://www.ariaaudio.com/VW.htm It shows the nozzle clearly. This picture was taken a few weeks ago before I restored the air ducts. SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) >> Not sure I'm seeing what you are describing. Are you saying that the >> "nozzle" on the shroud for the left-side air pipe is not the same as [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > It shows the nozzle clearly. This picture was taken a few weeks ago > before I restored the air ducts. Huh. New one on me. Perhaps Dave Pearsons can throw some light on this. Max >From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel > On my shroud, >the opening on the portside (left when facing forward) points straight [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >protuberance that the air duct attaches to. It does not look like any of >the photos I've seen of the shroud squirrelman, the shroud is for the vehicles with airconditioning....the compressor mounted to the *left* side of the carb and therefore the duct had to be redesigned and repositioned to clear the unit....so rest assured you don't have an "oddball"....LOL ------------------- Chris Perdue *All opinions are those of the author of this post* "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html to reply take your PANTS off >>From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > be redesigned and repositioned to clear the unit....so rest assured you don't > have an "oddball"....LOL Oh ho! The rare and elusive *air conditioning-ready* version! Thanks! SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) >Oh ho! The rare and elusive *air conditioning-ready* version! > >Thanks! Not so much rare and elusive, the past few I have aquired have been modified for A/C whats neat is the different ways the original installers came up with to get that thing out of the way! All mine have been differnt configs and your is yet another version (pretty decent one by the way). My favorite was one I took out of a Ghia, The installer actually took the outlet right off and filled it in. I only had to do half the work to build a "faux" Thing shroud :) Mark Detro Englewood, FL <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> That is done for the air conditioning compressor to mount in front of the original air duct location. <br> <p>Jim <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Max Welton wrote: <p>> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 02:57:53 GMT, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott <br>> <j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSadelphiaDOT.net> wrote: <br>> <br>>> Eduardo Kaftanski wrote: <br>>> <br>>>> In article <RsqHb.6907$Vv2.3106736@news1.news.adelphia.net>, <br>>>> Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott <br>>>> <j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSadelphiaDOT.net> wrote: <br>>>> <br>>>>> And the flaps: I'm not even sure where the darn flaps are supposed <br>>>>> to be -- can some kind soul point me to some good pictures? Are they <br>>>>> visible when the engine is in the bus? <br>>>> <br>>>> <br>>>> <br>>>> reach behind the fan housing and see if there is a rod going sideways, <br>>>> joining 4 levers. <br>>> <br>>> <br>>> Near the top? Near the bottom? <br>>> <br>>> Darn -- is there a good picture of what a T1 engine looks like from <br>>> behind (forward side) with all the tin on it? <br>> <br>> <br>> <a href="http://www.geocities.com/janbugger/flaps.html">http://www.geocities.com/janbugge r/flaps.html</a> <p>That's very useful! Thank you! I'll do some more poking around my tin. <p>One thing that has always puzzled me. There are two ducts or hoses that <br>take the air from the shroud on down to the heater boxes. On my shroud, <br>the opening on the portside (left when facing forward) points straight <br>sideways, not down/rearward like the starboard opening. There is a very <br>poor picture at <a href="http://www.ariaaudio.com/VW.htm">http://www.ariaaudio.com/VW.htm</a> . The top picture. It's <br>crooked, you need to put your right ear on your right shoulder to <br>straighten things out. But if you look for a minute, you will see an odd <br>protuberance that the air duct attaches to. It does not look like any of <br>the photos I've seen of the shroud. <p>-- <br>Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott <br>71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer)</blockquote> </html> >>> In article <RsqHb.6907$Vv2.3106736@news1.news.adelphia.net>, >>> Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Max :D Still up... guess I'll leave it there for a bit longer.. Jan >> http://www.geocities.com/janbugger/flaps.html >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Jan Jan, I initially looked for your flaps page at http://www.type2.com/library/. There's so much other good reference material there, perhaps you could submit this one? Max >>> http://www.geocities.com/janbugger/flaps.html >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Max Nah. Too lazy. :D Jan >I did extensive research on using Thermostat and flap. First of all the >Brazilian engines were running Fuel Injection. I disagree with your statement. I have driven a lot of brazilian made beetles and none had FI. They ceased production en the early nineties or late eighties, and the first brazilian card with FI were produced around 1998. You may be refering to Mexican beetles, which had FI from the early nineties.... I don't know if they had thermostat either. Anyway, a Brazilian beetle driven where temps go anywhere below 20oC never, ever gets warm enough for decent heater output except on the highway. Plugs are always wet with oil, and oil is never hot enough to get the dipstick hot. SignatureEduardo Kaftanski | e@nn.cl | Freedom's just another word http://e.nn.cl | for nothing left to loose. | Eduardo, You are right it is the Mexican I was thinking about.. OK do the Brazilian use thermostat and flaps or not? Or is there different fanhousing to direct the air if the flaps are not used. Joe > >I did extensive research on using Thermostat and flap. First of all the > >Brazilian engines were running Fuel Injection. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > http://e.nn.cl | for nothing left to loose. > | > Eduardo, > You are right it is the Mexican I was thinking about.. OK do the >Brazilian use thermostat and flaps or not? nopes. at least all the brazilian tinware I have laid hands on had no flaps and not even the slots to put them in. >Or is there different fanhousing to direct the air if the flaps are not >used. don't know about the fanhousing... the normal replacement has no flaps and no heater outlets. original has heater but no flaps. SignatureEduardo Kaftanski | e@nn.cl | "World domination, now" http://e.nn.cl | Linus Torvalds Hi.I will rest my case here.VW brazil-no flaps,noslots,no problem(in Brazil)Nuff said.Steve > > Eduardo, > > You are right it is the Mexican I was thinking about.. OK do the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > don't know about the fanhousing... the normal replacement has no flaps and > no heater outlets. original has heater but no flaps. Hi.I agree that if you haven't missed them for 6 years don't sweat it.Is CA so much more severe than Brazil's climate.It seem more akin to Brazil than Germany tempwise.Steve > >From: weewiktype1 > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html > to reply take your PANTS off >From: "Ilambert" >Hi.I agree that if you haven't missed them for 6 years don't sweat it.Is CA >so much more severe than Brazil's climate.It seem more akin to Brazil than >Germany tempwise.Steve no offense steve, but it is clear you are one of the 90% of vw owners that just does not understand the cooling system on the cars we love...i went the "no thermo, no flaps" route for years because that is what i was told to do...i can tell you from experience that cracked heads are a way of life when you run without the flaps and thermo....especially in the cooler weather...(my winters usually yield temps from teens to 40's).....the vw engine *relies* on thermal expansion and heads tend to crack when being blasted with below freezing temps on the outside and the heat from combustion on the inside...inside expanding, outside not, equals cracks....overheated heads in the summer due to the engines cooling air taking the "path of least resistance"....the path of least resistance is the cylinders(aka jugs) which need much *less* cooling air than the head which has the brunt of the heat from combustion....but hey, i learned the hard(read: expensive) way, so i guess others can too.... ------------------- Chris Perdue *All opinions are those of the author of this post* "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html to reply take your PANTS off Hi.Like I said in my post,SoCal is more like Brazil then Siberia.And the bottom of the jugs won't be exposed to outside temps if the sheet metal is in place as its supposed to be.Steve > >From: "Ilambert" > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html > to reply take your PANTS off >From: "Ilambert" >Hi.Like I said in my post,SoCal is more like Brazil then Siberia.And the >bottom of the jugs won't be exposed to outside temps if the sheet metal is >in place as its supposed to be to each his own, but the bugs imported to SoCal had them....and the engine is going to be exposed to "outside air" as long as the fan is turning. i don't know if you even follow what i wrote...but it doesn't matter...i searched high and low for months to find the proper cooling setup(all the small tin bits that get tossed and the flaps, connecting linkage, the control rod, and the thermo bracket) and i am glad I did...no more of the old problems that i thought were "just the old vw"....faster warmup equates to better gas mileage, less engine wear and better performance. not cracking those high dollar performance heads is a plus also...if it is silly to want the things listed above then call me Mr. Clown ------------------- Chris Perdue *All opinions are those of the author of this post* "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html to reply take your PANTS off NO,no.no.Chris.Of course the optimime setup is with thermo and flaps I just meant that for a relatively stock motor ,in So Cal,lack of them wasn't a go-nogo situation.Of all the motors I've BLOed up, only 1 overheated and that was a FV motor that my pit crew(me) forgot to put fuel in between sessions.High RPM+fuel starvation is not good.Enjoy.Steve > >From: "Ilambert" > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html > to reply take your PANTS off >From: "Ilambert" >I just >meant that for a relatively stock motor ,in So Cal,lack of them wasn't a >go-nogo situation. and that we agree on...it will "go" fine without the flaps, but how long till it cracks at the exhaust ports from overheating? not worth it...once the thermostat, flaps, etc is installed it is basically "maintenance free" and costs you *nothing* i can't think of *ANY* good reason *not* to run them......but we have both stated our opinions and there is no use in "beating a dead horse" so lets let it go at we don't really see things the same... deal? ------------------- Chris Perdue *All opinions are those of the author of this post* "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html to reply take your PANTS off >>From: "Ilambert" > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > them......but we have both stated our opinions and there is no use in "beating > a dead horse" so lets let it go at we don't really see things the same... deal? And this whole thing has me feeling a bit discouraged right now. I got no thermostat, no flaps, it's a job no shop wants to deal with at a reasonable cost; I don't have the skills, tools or downtime to do the job myself. OH WOE IS ME!!! I need a hug. Inge? SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) >From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel >I got >no thermostat, no flaps, it's a job no shop wants to deal with at a >reasonable cost; I don't have the skills, tools or downtime to do the >job myself. OH WOE IS ME!!! the parts are available...the tools are minimal(can you say a basic wrench set and a screwdriver?) and believe me, you *do* have the skills.....not a complicated vehicle to work on at all...as far as downtime for a beginer, dropping the engine, installing the needed parts and re-install is a saturday.... ------------------- Chris Perdue *All opinions are those of the author of this post* "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html to reply take your PANTS off >> From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > dropping the engine, installing the needed parts and re-install is a > saturday.... It must be rough living in southern CA, so-called ACVW capital of the world. If Mike was in Colorado we would have this puppy whipped already! (Instead of playing on the computer all day!) Come-on ramva! Gotta be somebody in SoCal that knows which end of the jack to pump! Max >>> From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Come-on ramva! Gotta be somebody in SoCal that knows which end of the > jack to pump! If somebody does want to step up to the bat, just give me a shopping list of the required parts and I'll get them on hand. SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) >>> the parts are available...the tools are minimal(can you say a basic >>> wrench set [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > If somebody does want to step up to the bat, just give me a shopping > list of the required parts and I'll get them on hand. Most important are the two shutter (flap) assemblies themselves. These guys: http://63.230.74.177/misc/flaps/MVC-001F.JPG There is also a tie-bar that connects the two in front of the shroud so that they open and close together. There are a couple flavors of this bar, but yours sounds like VW 043-119-289 in the Berg catalog. I fabbed my last one from aluminum stock. No worries about whether it will fit that way. And a general-purpose spring to hold them open and some nifty little fasteners. Tomorrow I'll take some pictures of the tie-rod fasteners you will need. The flaps themselves are the only things you need the engine out for. They install into the shroud from the bottom, so the shroud has to come out. The control-rod will hang down between the fins in the 1/2 head and the thermostat can be attached at a later time. From previous posts, it also sounds like you are missing the left side heater box air shield? It's an easy install when the engine is out. If the Bergs don't have the flaps in stock, let me know. I got the ones in the picture from a different source. Max Like Chris said.Go for it.Give yourself two days(though it will only take one,maybe).There isn't an easier ACVW to remove the motor from than you 71 bus.Straight out the back after takeing of the bumper and rear apron.No gravity challenges,and lots of room even with the Kads.Steve > >From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html > to reply take your PANTS off > Like Chris said.Go for it.Give yourself two days(though it will only take > one,maybe).There isn't an easier ACVW to remove the motor from than you 71 > bus.Straight out the back after takeing of the bumper and rear apron.No > gravity challenges,and lots of room even with the Kads.Steve Not to sound like a nincompoop, but is there a step-by-step "Pulling Your 71 Bus's Engine for Dummies" guide? And -- how much does that thing weigh? Can two guys pull it out? What do you put it on (we have to work in the street) once it is out? (I can't believe I'm even contemplating doing such a thing myself...) SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) >>>From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >>http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html >>to reply take your PANTS off > > Like Chris said.Go for it.Give yourself two days(though it will only take > > one,maybe).There isn't an easier ACVW to remove the motor from than you 71 [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > (I can't believe I'm even contemplating doing such a thing myself...) Mike: Certainly can't say that this is the recommended way, but back in '77 when I put a new motor in my super beetle, I had four friends lift the back end up while I HELD the motor on my chest! They raised the car over the motor, then picked the motor up off my chest and put it on a pallet! Ahhhh, the good old days. (For reference, I was a collegiate level shot putter and discus thrower, so the motor wasn't that bad!) Larry '71 SB - "Herman" http://www.i4putt.com/Herman/herman.htm >From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" >Not to sound like a nincompoop, but is there a step-by-step "Pulling >Your 71 Bus's Engine for Dummies" guide? you own the bently correct? there is a procedure there... >And -- how much does that thing weigh? Can two guys pull it out? most vw people learn to do it themselves...i do...always have.... >What do >you put it on (we have to work in the street) once it is out? the ground? LOL.... >(I can't believe I'm even contemplating doing such a thing myself...) and *I* can't believe you would contemplate farming it out...but i have always done my own work...every vw owner learns to pull the engine....you can put it off, but it is going to happen....and most of them laugh when they finally do because they can't get over how intimidated they were by the "thought" of it, when it was actually so simple....(speak up Scott H...LOL, shaggie you reading?_) ------------------- Chris Perdue *All opinions are those of the author of this post* "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html to reply take your PANTS off >>From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" > >>Not to sound like a nincompoop, but is there a step-by-step "Pulling >>Your 71 Bus's Engine for Dummies" guide? You don't need to do a complete pull, just drop it down enough to pull the shroud. If your oil cooler is leaking, it's a good time to replace the gaskets there too. Anything else???? Clutch disk... All it takes is a $40 floor jack. On a 71 bus there is no need to drop it down at all.It's more akin to pull out,plug in.I wish my 72 was as EZ.And as for oversimplifying the process,I did say to reread Muir.If me and millions of others (I did the first one at 14 years old with The Book)can figure it out,I'm sure Rocky can handle it.It's not that complicated!Steve > >>From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott" > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > All it takes is a $40 floor jack. > ... speak up Scott H... How'd I do? :o) -- Scott >From: "Scott H" >How'd I do? :o) excellent....<G> ------------------- Chris Perdue *All opinions are those of the author of this post* "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html to reply take your PANTS off Don't worry about the weight.Itis not that much(I've seen girls ,not Russian)handle it.Once the rear bumper is off(4 bolts)remove the apron(4 bolts)remove the various wires,hose and lines(label them well-there aren't that many)and don't forget the cables connecting the heater boxs.Put a floor jack under drain plate on the bottom of the motor and raise it enough to barely take weight.I'm sure Pep Boys can sell you a jack that will be good enough for like$29.99 so no tool excuses.Now it's merely a matter of 4 more nuts/bolts holding the engine to the trans,pull the jack straight back(have a helper keep it balanced on the jack and watch the Kads.When the motor is out in the open,add the flaps ,check the clutch,do the happy dance and plan to put it back(reverse post).Saint Muir explains it much better so spend the night before rereading The Book.Thereafter you can truly be a Busser and bask in the knowledge that you did it.Enjoy!Steve > > Like Chris said.Go for it.Give yourself two days(though it will only take > > one,maybe).There isn't an easier ACVW to remove the motor from than you 71 [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > >>http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html > >>to reply take your PANTS off Steve -- that sounds pretty straightforward when you put it like that. I'll read and re-read Bentleys and Muir and screw up my courage and dig in. But first I am going to shoot a bunch of pictures of how things are now, and request assistance identifying as many of the missing cooling bits as possible so I can (and the odds are?) have all the right parts ready and waiting. The goal is to have this thing apart and together in one weekend. SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) > Don't worry about the weight.Itis not that much(I've seen girls ,not > Russian)handle it.Once the rear bumper is off(4 bolts)remove the apron(4 [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >>>>http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html >>>>to reply take your PANTS off Olli Lammi wrote: > Steve -- that sounds pretty straightforward when you put it like that. > I'll read and re-read Bentleys and Muir and screw up my courage and dig in. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and waiting. The goal is to have this thing apart and together in one > weekend. Support the transmission too before pulling engine. But some wooden blocks under it. Jan >Steve -- that sounds pretty straightforward when you put it like that. >I'll read and re-read Bentleys and Muir and screw up my courage and dig in. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >and waiting. The goal is to have this thing apart and together in one >weekend. I have lots of pictures of my day of engine install... http://e.nn.cl/Fotos/HuevoII/MingaMotor/ SignatureEduardo Kaftanski | To put a pipe in byte mode, e@nn.cl | type PIPE_TYPE_BYTE. http://e.nn.cl | (from the Visual C++ help file.) > .When the motor is > out in the open,add the flaps ,check the clutch,do the happy dance and > plan to put it back(reverse post).Saint Muir explains it much better > so spend the As long as he's got it out, what else might he replace/inspect before commencing the happy dance...t/o bearing, heads, oil cooler? SignatureBill Merrill Arlington, Mass. '70 Covertible All those are good things to check,but lets not overwhelm him.Once he buys the jack,he's hooked HA,HA.Steve > > .When the motor is > > out in the open,add the flaps ,check the clutch,do the happy dance and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > As long as he's got it out, what else might he replace/inspect before > commencing the happy dance...t/o bearing, heads, oil cooler? > All those are good things to check,but lets not overwhelm him.Once he buys > the jack,he's hooked HA,HA.Steve A jack I have. When I got it, I figured I'd use it for *simple* things, like changing the oil. Had no idea I'd be looking down the barrel of pulling the engine. I guess it's time for Rocket J Squirrel to grow up. SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) >>>.When the motor is >>>out in the open,add the flaps ,check the clutch,do the happy dance and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>As long as he's got it out, what else might he replace/inspect before >>commencing the happy dance...t/o bearing, heads, oil cooler? >> All those are good things to check,but lets not overwhelm him.Once he >> buys [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > like changing the oil. Had no idea I'd be looking down the barrel of > pulling the engine. I guess it's time for Rocket J Squirrel to grow up. Grow old. Not up. That's what I plan to do anyway. More fun that way. :) Jan It is only time to grow but only if he wants to blossom.Steve > > All those are good things to check,but lets not overwhelm him.Once he buys > > the jack,he's hooked HA,HA.Steve [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >>As long as he's got it out, what else might he replace/inspect before > >>commencing the happy dance...t/o bearing, heads, oil cooler? > Not to sound like a nincompoop, but is there a step-by-step "Pulling > Your 71 Bus's Engine for Dummies" guide? Well, you've already gotten plenty of encouragment so I don't know if this'll help ...but here goes .... The book `How to Rebuild Your VW Aircooled Engine" by Tom Wilson is an excellent guide, IMHO, as well as the Bentley manual. Both walk you through step-by-step. I highly recommend the Wilson book. The Muir book probably has a good section too. From what others have said with the removeable rear apron, it sounds like this will be even easier than a Beetle engine pull since the bus will not have to be jacked up to pull the engine out. Here's a couple of web pages that detail Beetle engine removal. I don't know anything about busses so I'm sure a few things are different but the major stuff will be similar enough to give you a good idea of what's involved. Some crazy Finnish guy's page: http://www.geocities.com/bugfuel/engineremoval.html Also: http://www.type2.com/library/engineg/kuhn7.htm Surely there's a web page out there detailing a bus engine pull. Google the hell out of it. :o) > And -- how much does that thing weigh? Can two guys pull it out? What do > you put it on (we have to work in the street) once it is out? The '71/'72 `Without Guesswork' lists the dry weight at 264 lbs. It should be a piece of cake for two guys. Place it on some boards or a piece of plywood ... or flip a metal trashcan upside down and set it on that ... anything, really. > (I can't believe I'm even contemplating doing such a thing myself...) I couldn't either but I decided that if I wanted to continue piddling around with these things that I needed to know how to do it. I pulled the engine out of my '72 Super Beetle by myself using Jan's `slide it out the side' method at his page at the above link. I lowered the engine down onto two stacks of 2x6s placed on a piece of plywood, then pulled the 2x6s out one at a time until the engine was on the plywood. I then raised the car and slid the engine out, over to my small utility trailer and wrestled it up onto the trailer and wheeled into the backyard. I only needed help lifting the engine into my utility building. I planned to re-install the engine by myself too but my dad pretty much insisted on coming over to help. He's never owned a VW so I think he was just really curious about this bizarre little car I was working on. :o) It really is quite simple. Just be patient. If you get stumped on something, if the engine doesn't seem to want to come loose right away or if it doesn't seem to want to go back in, just take a break and come back to it after a while. I've put around 2500 miles on mine since I did it and so far it's still running .... so far so good. :o) Hope some of this inane rambling helps. Good luck. -- Scott > Hope some of this inane rambling helps. Good luck. > > -- > Scott A flat ratcheting wrench is nice too. I don't remember if it's 17 or 18 mm. A socket wrench won't fit back there, and a flat ratcheting wrench with a slight z angle won't fit either (behind the shroud on a bug). It has to be perfectly flat. Exactly like Scott said,a 68-71 Bus has the best setup for engine swaps.Steve > > Not to sound like a nincompoop, but is there a step-by-step "Pulling > > Your 71 Bus's Engine for Dummies" guide? [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > -- > Scott >Like Chris said.Go for it.Give yourself two days(though it will only take >one,maybe). These guys all mean really well, and they're encouraging you to do the right thing, but I suspect that they have forgotten their first experience with dropping a VW engine. There's a bit more to it than they've mentioned: throttle cable, heater cables, gas line, electrical wires for ignition and charging system.... And some of these things won't want to come apart easily because they will have rusted in place: cooling tin screws and heater cables. The biggest mistake you can make would be to start this on a saturday when you HAVE to have the vehicle ready to drive again the following monday. Gather together ALL the parts that you're missing and then give yourself nine days, including 2 weekends, to get done. That way you are pretty likely to finish early, which is a LOT better than finishing late. Plan alternate ways to get to a parts shop for the parts that you later discover you need. It's okay to leave the van on the street, but you'll need a place to stash the engine while you do the work. Kitchen tables and basements are favorites. The engine weighs about 250 lbs. Two people can carry it, but be careful of where you lift; there are places you CAN lift from and places which are just too flimsy. Some kind of wheeled cart will be really useful if you have to go a long ways, but a shopping cart is probably not strong enough, and certainly too tall to be stable. A "little red wagon" might be fine. Good places to look for the missing cooling system parts are the shops which do lots of VW work. The ones which leave all those parts out are especially likely to have some laying around. It's okay, let them think you're just a chump that doesn't know any better and is still willing to buy some of that worthless crap from them. You'll have to be a little careful here, because there's a bit of variety in these parts, and you need to get the RIGHT ones for your engine. You may have to get them to agree to let you come back and swap if they give you the wrong ones. - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- >From: Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org >These guys all mean really well, and they're encouraging you to do the >right thing, but I suspect that they have forgotten their first >experience with dropping a VW engine. no i haven't forgotted my first time dropping the vw engine....BUT i did have experience with american iron, so i was amazed at how very little work was involved...I'm still willing to be that anyone that can adjust the valves and change the oil is mechanically able to drop the engine... ------------------- Chris Perdue *All opinions are those of the author of this post* "Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html to reply take your PANTS off >> Like Chris said.Go for it.Give yourself two days(though it will only >> take [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Madison, WI 53711 USA > ----------------------------------------------- Jim speaks the truth. By far the best thing you can do is have someone there who has done this before. I did my first drop solo, but the car wasn't my primary at the time so it didn't have to be back together that day. But I also did what you are doing, asking lots of questions. Drain the oil before you start. That way you can lean and tilt the engine every which way and not spill. Sometimes it's nice to lay it over on the flywheel for easy access to the bottom. I generally use 4x4 wooden blocks to rest the engine on, two blocks stacked under each heater box. Something like this: http://63.230.74.177/enginestand/MVC-037F.JPG Moving the engine around can also be done with the floor jack itself. Just keep it ballanced with one hand and pull it where you need it with the other. Having a helper at this point is handy. Specially for lifting the engine off the jack. http://63.230.74.177/ghia/MVC-0270.JPG http://63.230.74.177/ghia/MVC-0271.JPG I have a piece of 2x4 that goes between the jack and the sump-plate. At this point that chuck of wood has the right dents to lock into the jack so it doesn't slide around. And the sump plate doesn't get all scratched up. >I have a piece of 2x4 that goes between the jack and the sump-plate. At >this point that chuck of wood has the right dents to lock into the jack so >it doesn't slide around. And the sump plate doesn't get all scratched up. Who was that guy that cut a hole in the deck, with a removeable cover, and had a bar or something across above the engine compartment and used the little chain hoist or come-along? > Hi.Like I said in my post,SoCal is more like Brazil then Siberia.And the > bottom of the jugs won't be exposed to outside temps if the sheet metal is > in place as its supposed to be. Who's the good online source for cooling tin bits? I am missing the sheet metal under the cylinder heads. Better get it, and the proper bolts. Someone who provides the bolts, too. -- Rocky Steve >>>From: "Ilambert" >> [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] >>http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html >>to reply take your PANTS off SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) <!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html> No Bolts, they slip(actually they snap) onto the cylinder studs. <br> <p>Jim <blockquote TYPE=CITE>Ilambert wrote: <p>> Hi.Like I said in my post,SoCal is more like Brazil then Siberia.And the <br>> bottom of the jugs won't be exposed to outside temps if the sheet metal is <br>> in place as its supposed to be. <p>Who's the good online source for cooling tin bits? I am missing the <br>sheet metal under the cylinder heads. Better get it, and the proper <br>bolts. Someone who provides the bolts, too. <p>-- <br>Rocky <p>Steve <br>> "Chris Perdue" <bugninva@aol.comPANTS> wrote in message <br>> <a href="news:20031228011559.29446.00001366@mb-m02.aol.com">news:20031228011559.29446.00001366@mb-m02.aol.com</a>... <br>> <br>>>>From: "Ilambert" <br>>> <br>>>>Hi.I agree that if you haven't missed them for 6 years don't sweat it.Is <br>> <br>> CA <br>> <br>>>>so much more severe than Brazil's climate.It seem more akin to Brazil <br>> <br>> than <br>> <br>>>>Germany tempwise.Steve <br>>> <br>>>no offense steve, but it is clear you are one of the 90% of vw owners that <br>> <br>> just <br>> <br>>>does not understand the cooling system on the cars we love...i went the <br>> <br>> "no <br>> <br>>>thermo, no flaps" route for years because that is what i was told to <br>> <br>> do...i can <br>> <br>>>tell you from experience that cracked heads are a way of life when you run <br>>>without the flaps and thermo....especially in the cooler weather...(my <br>> <br>> winters <br>> <br>>>usually yield temps from teens to 40's).....the vw engine *relies* on <br>> <br>> thermal <br>> <br>>>expansion and heads tend to crack when being blasted with below freezing <br>> <br>> temps <br>> <br>>>on the outside and the heat from combustion on the inside...inside <br>> <br>> expanding, <br>> <br>>>outside not, equals cracks....overheated heads in the summer due to the <br>> <br>> engines <br>> <br>>>cooling air taking the "path of least resistance"....the path of least <br>>>resistance is the cylinders(aka jugs) which need much *less* cooling air <br>> <br>> than <br>> <br>>>the head which has the brunt of the heat from combustion....but hey, i <br>> <br>> learned <br>> <br>>>the hard(read: expensive) way, so i guess others can too.... <br>>>------------------- <br>>>Chris Perdue <br>>>*All opinions are those of the author of this post* <br>>>"Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug" <br>>><a href="http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html">http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva /MAINPAGE.html</a> <br>>>to reply take your PANTS off <br>>> <br>> <br>> <br>> <p>-- <br>Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott <br>71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer)</blockquote> </html> >Hi.Like I said in my post,SoCal is more like Brazil then Siberia.And the >bottom of the jugs won't be exposed to outside temps if the sheet metal is >in place as its supposed to be. Your opinion is a commonly held one, but it's been pretty well refuted. For a more detailed explaination I suggest you buy and read the book below. There's a huge amount of good information here on all aspects of the aircooled VW engine and lots of good things for all of us to be aware of. Everyone who would like to think that he has a reasonable understanding of this engine should be well acquainted with this entire book. It's still in print, and for good reason. How to Hotrod Volkswagen Engines by Bill Fisher published by H. P. Books, Tucson, AZ, 1970 ISBN 0-912656-03-4 (excellent book, well written and researched) I believe Berg also has a paper on temp differences with and without the thermostat and flaps. - ----------------------------------------------- Jim Adney jadney@vwtype3.org Madison, WI 53711 USA ----------------------------------------------- >>From: "Ilambert" > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the head which has the brunt of the heat from combustion....but hey, i learned > the hard(read: expensive) way, so i guess others can too.... Persuant to that, I invite speculation from the RAMVA crowd: Here's the setup: '71 bus. Thermostat is missing. Unclear if linkage is present. Assume no linkage. No tin under cylinder heads. You drive the bus to the local shop (Randy's Foreign Car in San Diego maybe, close to the trolley, easy for drop-off and pick-up) and say to the nice service manager: please, kind sir, install the missing parts and get the cooling working. What kind of price range do you think this would fall into? SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) >>> From: "Ilambert" >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > What kind of price range do you think this would fall into? Chances are they won't. Or the estimate they will give you will be astronomical, because they deliberately will choose to price themselves out of your reach. Why? They don't have time to go hunt for the missing pieces and can't see the need for them in the first place. Then there are those shops that will charge you something reasonable, but will fail to mention you that they left out some critical pieces because they too were too lazy to go hunt for them. Many are only available used these days, and searching for them is time away from work that could actually bring "easier" money in from some other customer. Easy decision if you are running a "volume" shop rather than "quality" shop. The quality shops can't survive anymore because there are too many gullible people who fall for the cheap prices of the "volume" shops. I could go on and on and on, but I'd just bore you. The best, and most reliable way to do it, is to either do it yourself and learn along the way (You have RAMVA here to support you). Or find some other, mechanically skilled hobbyist to do it for you, someone who isn't in it for the money. Jan >> Persuant to that, I invite speculation from the RAMVA crowd: Here's the >> setup: '71 bus. Thermostat is missing. Unclear if linkage is present. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > shop. The quality shops can't survive anymore because there are too many > gullible people who fall for the cheap prices of the "volume" shops. I completely agree. > I could go on and on and on, but I'd just bore you. Too late. :D > The best, and most reliable way to do it, is to either do it yourself > and learn along the way (You have RAMVA here to support you). Or find > some other, mechanically skilled hobbyist to do it for you, someone who > isn't in it for the money. > > Jan Actually that mechanically skilled hobbyist can help you arrive at the 'do it yourself' stage if you're so inclined. I believe the Bergs have all the stock cooling system components. The catalog has several nice diagrams and all the part numbers. The part numbers are available at http://www.geneberg.com/vwpartspg24.htm . Here are some pictures I just shot of the shutter (flap) assemblies: http://63.230.74.177/misc/flaps/ Max >>> Persuant to that, I invite speculation from the RAMVA crowd: Here's >>> the setup: '71 bus. Thermostat is missing. Unclear if linkage is [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > catalog has several nice diagrams and all the part numbers. The part > numbers are available at http://www.geneberg.com/vwpartspg24.htm . GBE lists things by line code. I'm not finding a nice catalog with pictures on the site. I'm not experienced enough to order things by line code and three-word description only. Are the pretty pictures in a Secret Location? > Here are some pictures I just shot of the shutter (flap) assemblies: > http://63.230.74.177/misc/flaps/ Oh ho. Your last shot "this engine has no flaps" looks like mine. I was wondering what those empty holes in the shroud were for. Now I know. Well, it doesn't get real cold here, so I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with putting on the covers under the cylinders to help the engine stay cooler in summer. Darn I wish this engine had all the parts. It's a family commuter car, so pulling the engine -- even if I knew how, had the tools, and had the space -- would not be real practical. I'd need the modern-day equivalent of an old-fashioned barn-raising, where a bunch of guys who knew what they were doing and had the tools descended on me to do it in a weekend. I could offer free beer, but I'm a vegetarian (it's a Buddhist thing) so the best I could do to match the traditional gift of hot food would be veggie burgers. SignatureMike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) >> Here are some pictures I just shot of the shutter (flap) assemblies: >> http://63.230.74.177/misc/flaps/ [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > bunch of guys who knew what they were doing and had the tools descended > on me to do it in a weekend. I could offer free beer, but I'm a I've been on both ends of that barn-raising. It's kinda fun! The two of us would have flaps in your engine in an afternoon. With 3 people ... maybe the whole day. ;-) Max If you live in a warm climate, you can get away with out flaps or open flaps or no thermostat, I would be very careful about missing tin. Even the tin under the heater boxes is important. As the engine blows the heat down these tins deflect it back out the back of the engine. with out ever those if in traffic you sit in a pool of heat. As for the Brazilian engines. Well it is warm over there and maybe without the heater outlets you compensate for the missing flaps directing the air. Or the factory took some lessons from the American car manufactures and built in some planed obsolescence and figure in warm weather it won't matter much and they can save on some flaps and thermostats. Hay that adds up. But the bottom line no matter how you arrive at it is that all the parts should be warming at the same time to compensate for the different metal expansion rates and an engine oil temp of anywhere between 180 f and 210f. If you got that no problem. But when you live where the temps go from 100f down to below 0 f. You better have a thermostat. Joe > >> Here are some pictures I just shot of the shutter (flap) assemblies: > >> http://63.230.74.177/misc/flaps/ [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Max > If you live in a warm climate, you can get away with out flaps or open flaps > or no thermostat, I would be very careful about missing tin. In a type 1 engine, if you leave the flaps out completely, then the heads will not receive full cooling. The air flow follows the path of least resistance as someone already mentioned. That would leave the furthest corners of the heads with dramatically reduced airflow. The flaps, when fully OPEN, also form an air duct by CLOSING a section of the flow path along with teh help of the big, continuous head FIN so that any air that is blown through the last "flap" section, can ONLY go to the heads. Without the flap in place, this air would rather choose the easier route past teh cylinders and would never be forced to cover the entire head fin area. The air needs flow, and pressure, to reach all areas it was originally designed to reach. With enough backpressure (restrict teh flow of the *easiest* path) you can make the air flow at 90 degree angles. Not possible if you leave the flaps and bottom tin pieces out. (The clip-on pieces that get wedged between teh cylinder and head fins). Jan > so the best I could do to match the > traditional gift of hot food would be veggie burgers. ....................Yeck! ........You're the anti-shaggie! <g> >>so the best I could do to match the >>traditional gift of hot food would be veggie burgers. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > <g> HAHAHAHAHAAH "Bring your own steaks" Jan Trading free beer for help is a no win situation anyway.But do put that bottom tin in.Steve > >>> Persuant to that, I invite speculation from the RAMVA crowd: Here's > >>> the setup: '71 bus. Thermostat is missing. Unclear if linkage is [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > vegetarian (it's a Buddhist thing) so the best I could do to match the > traditional gift of hot food would be veggie burgers. Jan I agree 100% but some of these guys have been running for years without the flaps and thermosat. I guess if you run a basic stocker you can get away with it. But than again you can own a car for 50 years and only run it for 5 miles a year. We missed how much mileage. Well what ever it is, they would go longer with the Thermostat and flaps. VW didn't make 60 million cars and have thousands of engineers working on them to put something in they did not need. Also I am sure it was improved upon in 70 years of study. There have never been a car studied more. Joe J > >>From: "Ilambert" > > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott > 71 VW Type 2 -- the Wonderbus (AKA the Saunabus in summer) |
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