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Car Forum / Volkswagen / Air Cooled Volkswagen Cars / August 2005

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More on Ye stalling on decelleration and nose down

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Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott - 30 Aug 2005 19:56 GMT
(71 bus, stock 1600DP engine, standard carb/air cleaner)

Thanks to everyone who has provided suggestions to this pesky
problem(engine conks when foot goes off gas. Sometimes. Almost always
after engine has been revving for a minute or so, like hitting offramp,
or cruising street at 3,000 rpm. But not always. When it does, it conks
quickly, no hesitation. When it doesn't, tach shows that it slows to 950
rpm. Braking not required for conk. Engine can be hot or cold. It's an
either-or situation: either it conks or it does not. No in-between
low-idle situation where it it trying to make up its mind.).

So far I've been able to eliminate:

1. fuel pressure or delivery to bowl (engine runs fine at WOT for as
long as I like),

2. ignition (timing light mounted in rear window shows I have spark,
even as engine is stalling out)

3. brake boost vacuum leak (no problem when braking, I was wrong earlier)

as possible causes for this odd behavior

This suggests that it isn't mixture (no black smoke, no smell of
unburned fuel, and, as I mentioned, it's either-or), nor a vacuum leak
(either-or, engine hot or cold).

Prevention/Recovery Technique.

I have evolved this method of dealing with the problem: While driving I
can stop it from happening by keeping an eye on the tach when foot goes
off gas. If I am not in a panic stop situation, I have enough time to
see if the needle is dropping slowly or more quickly. If it is going
down to a stall condition, pumping the rpm's up a few times fixes it.
Pump, watch tach, pump, watch tach. The first couple pumps usually don't
do the job. The third or fourth does. Can tell right away by how quickly
the tach is falling whether the engine is in a nosedive or not.

If it does stall, the engine starts up right away with application of
starter and a touch on the accelerator.

The problem occurs more frequently and is harder to recover from when
the nose of the bus is downhill.

Unless my "Prevention/Recovery Technique" suggests otherwise, I'm
thinking I'm dealing with an idle circuit problem.

Jan proposed that when it conks I take this newish aircooled.net 34
PICT-3 Pierburg carb apart and inspect the bowl to see how much fuel is
in it. See if there is some idle circuit problem, or a fuel delivery
problem. It's the really right idea, but I don't see myself pulling over
to the side of the road and waiting for the engine to cool enough to
pull, disassemble, inspect, re-assemble and re-install the carb while I
am going about my daily stupid errands and stuff. Heck, I am not 100%
certain that I can get the carb out without pulling the engine.

I bet there are plenty of Real Men here on RAMVA that would undertake
such a task without hesitation. I am, however, a mere squirrel. Timid.

I might just get another carb and install it to see if the problem goes
away. Direct, and simple. Can sell the unused one on eBay. I would take
a loss, yeah, but I would narrow down the problem. Other than the fact
that no Real Man would use this method, is there anything I should
consider or try before going this route?

Signature

Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
KG6RCR

Jan Andersson - 30 Aug 2005 21:28 GMT
> Jan proposed that when it conks I take this newish aircooled.net 34
> PICT-3 Pierburg carb apart and inspect the bowl to see how much fuel is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> am going about my daily stupid errands and stuff. Heck, I am not 100%
> certain that I can get the carb out without pulling the engine.

No no no,

just disconnect air cleaner from the carb,
disconnect carb lever return spring
remove the 5 top screws, and carefully lift the carb top off. That's all
there is to it. One fairly short flat head screwdriver needed. Make sure
power is off when you are doing it and watch those exposed alternator
terminals. Don't want any metal shorting on them. One os hot at all times.

Once you have the carb top off, you can inspect the fuel level in the
bowl with a small mirror if you can't peek in there. I know it's hard to
 get a good view in there in a bus engine bay.

> I might just get another carb and install it to see if the problem goes
> away. Direct, and simple. Can sell the unused one on eBay. I would take
> a loss, yeah, but I would narrow down the problem. Other than the fact
> that no Real Man would use this method, is there anything I should
> consider or try before going this route?

Don't throw parts at it at random. The new carb might work for a while,
but soon enoough you might end up with, for example, ANOTHER rust
particle in the idle passage that got there from your rusty gas tank.
Plan on buying a new carb again? Better get a full crate of them then.

Hang in there. People replace parts that have nothing wrong with them
because they don't bother, or understand how to properly maintain them
or repair them. Half of the time they aren't even broken.

Jan
Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott - 30 Aug 2005 23:45 GMT
>> Jan proposed that when it conks I take this newish aircooled.net 34
>> PICT-3 Pierburg carb apart and inspect the bowl to see how much fuel
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> remove the 5 top screws, and carefully lift the carb top off. That's all
> there is to it. One fairly short flat head screwdriver needed.

Jeepers -- that's a heck of a lot easier than removing the whole carb!

> Once you have the carb top off, you can inspect the fuel level in the
> bowl with a small mirror if you can't peek in there. I know it's hard to
>  get a good view in there in a bus engine bay.

Inspection mirror, check,. Small flat-blade screwdriver, check.

(Called a "minus" screwdriver in Japan. The Philips they call a "plus"
screwdriver. Makes sense to me).

<snip>

> Don't throw parts at it at random. The new carb might work for a while,
> but soon enoough you might end up with, for example, ANOTHER rust
> particle in the idle passage that got there from your rusty gas tank.

Fuel filter element is clean, so I don't think I have a gigantic rust
problem. But yeah, your point is taken.

> Plan on buying a new carb again? Better get a full crate of them then.

Crate of carbs, check. Hey -- wait a minute!

> Hang in there. People replace parts that have nothing wrong with them
> because they don't bother, or understand how to properly maintain them
> or repair them. Half of the time they aren't even broken.

Thanks for the ass-kicking.  I will continue to work at this thing.

Signature

Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
KG6RCR

Jan - 31 Aug 2005 07:46 GMT
> Thanks for the ass-kicking.  I will continue to work at this thing.

Hope you weren't offended. Somehow I don't think you are the kind of
person who would be. :)

jan
Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott - 30 Aug 2005 23:58 GMT
But wait . . . before I take the top off the carb while at the curb in
order to inspect the inside of the bowl to see if it has fuel in it . .
. couldn't we expect the bowl to have fuel in it if the car has no
trouble accelerating and cruising at road and freeway speeds? Doesn't
all the fuel that goes down the throat come from the bowl?

I guess I mean: why bother with the roadside inspection procedure? Just
open the thing and clean out the idle as you and others have said?

Stupid questions # 156, 157, 158, and 159 in the series. Collect them all.

--
mrjs

>> Jan proposed that when it conks I take this newish aircooled.net 34
>> PICT-3 Pierburg carb apart and inspect the bowl to see how much fuel
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Jan

Signature

Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
KG6RCR

Jan - 31 Aug 2005 07:50 GMT
> But wait . . . before I take the top off the carb while at the curb in
> order to inspect the inside of the bowl to see if it has fuel in it . .
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Stupid questions # 156, 157, 158, and 159 in the series. Collect them all.

There may be enough fuel in the bowl at all times for driving around,
but if the fuel level is LOWER than normal, there may not be enough of
it for the idle circuit to work properly. Low level = lean mixture and
high level = rich mixture.

Fuel in the bowl is not a Yes /No situation, but how MUCH is in there is
also critical.

Then, if your fuel level is just a little too low, and you have ok Idle
when you are standing still... the stalling you experience when coming
to a relatively sudden stop, might be due to fuel sloshing about in teh
bowl.. levels are all over the place. The idle circuit may drain
completely or go VERY lean for a second, and that's all it takes.

Jan
Jan - 31 Aug 2005 07:52 GMT
Mike,

if you want to better understand the workings of a carburator,
I can go through it with you in private. I know you like them private
shows anyway.

It would require drawings and pictures, so this forum doesn't really
work for that purpose.

Jan
joneischeid - 30 Aug 2005 21:41 GMT
> (71 bus, stock 1600DP engine, standard carb/air cleaner)
>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
> that no Real Man would use this method, is there anything I should
> consider or try before going this route?

Squirrel,

Have you done as suggested but multiple posters, i.e. remove the idle
jet and clean with comprtessed air...?  Also, again a repeat suggestion,
simply take the top cover off the carb and look (carefully) for small
chunks of dirt, if so, clean.  I have had your symptons (though in a
bug), same carb same motor, a couple of times; the cleaning of the idle
jet fixed the situation twice and once I actually noticed a small piece
of crud when I took the top of the carb off.  You do not need to do this
on the side of the road...

Some have already suggested the above but Jan had the best write-up....
and, in amongst all that fine mechanic talk, he mentioned doing the
above....just clean the damn idle jet (one screwdriver) and see what
happens....

Jon
64 urban baja
Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott - 31 Aug 2005 02:26 GMT
>> (71 bus, stock 1600DP engine, standard carb/air cleaner)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
> Have you done as suggested but multiple posters, i.e. remove the idle
> jet and clean with comprtessed air...?  

Carburetors are kind of a mystery to me so . . . to answer your
question, I've not done that yet.

What stumps me about this, is something like this (which I read at
http://www.vw-resource.com/jets.html#pilot ):

"The carburetor idle circuit controls how much fuel you have at idle.
Where many people run into problems is that they don't understand that
the idle jet is the circuit that they do most of their driving on
(2500-3000 RPMs). This jet is critical to engine flexibility and economy."

I am having zero -- 0 -- trouble driving. The engine's behavior has not
changed even a little bit when driving.

> Also, again a repeat suggestion,
> simply take the top cover off the carb and look (carefully) for small
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of crud when I took the top of the carb off.  You do not need to do this
> on the side of the road...

Yeah I didn't understand that. I am not the brightest star in the sky,
never claimed to be.

> Some have already suggested the above but Jan had the best write-up....
> and, in amongst all that fine mechanic talk, he mentioned doing the
> above....just clean the damn idle jet (one screwdriver) and see what
> happens....

Now that I know that the jet can be removed easily, I will do so. Still
. . . shouldn't a fouled idle jet or idle circuit affect driving
performance . . . ?

Signature

Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
KG6RCR

Busahaulic - 31 Aug 2005 03:59 GMT
<<SNIPPETY-SNIP>>
> Now that I know that the jet can be removed easily, I will do so. Still
> . . . shouldn't a fouled idle jet or idle circuit affect driving
> performance . . . ?

Keep in mind I swore off carbs years ago...
Each circuit has overlap into the next. The idle circuit is solo at idle
unless the enrichening circuit is active (even so, if the enrichening
circuit is merely a choke, it just restricts airflow enough to cause the
fuel level to rise enough to richen the mixture, still using exclusively the
idle circuit)
In carbs with an intermediate circuit, it comes in as the engine rpm rises
and more demand for fuel exists. The idle circuit is still working.
The main jet circuit is generally considered exclusive at full throttle, but
not so. It accounts for the largest percentage of gasoline flow but the idle
circuit is still working.

All that said (and it is in a very general way correct - kinda generally!)
when your up to speed, you're mostly on the main jet. A plugged or partially
plugged idle jet will be hardly noticed then. Consider also when the
accelerator pump is activated, a massive amount of gasoline is squirted
directly into the throat...

SO - a flake of something could be blocking the idle jet in some attitudes
but not in others and may flop over the opening sometimes and not other
times; may fully block at times and partially block at times.

Fuel Injection is SOOOO much simpler!

I actually think it's an intermittent blockage in your exhaust system,
myself! Try removing the exhaust system completely from the engine and drive
it like that until...  ;o)
-BaH
Grahame Rumballe - 31 Aug 2005 05:17 GMT
> (71 bus, stock 1600DP engine, standard carb/air cleaner)
>
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
> 84 Westfalia: Mellow Yellow ("The Electrical Banana")
> KG6RCR

Mike,

Check your setting of the "Fast Idle Adjuster screw"
You could be blocking off the transfer hole with the butterfly.

Setting help here
http://www.vw-resource.com/34pict3.html#carb

Grahame
from Australia
 
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