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Car Forum / Volkswagen / Air Cooled Volkswagen Cars / April 2007issues with a 74 autstick and starting
ok, this is a 74 autostick bug ... belongs to my mom ... with a funny problem ... i think i know what it is .. but posting here in case anyone else can think of something for me to check on when i go up there friday to work on it ... when the car starts, it starts right up on the first turn over ... good idle, good accel, no missing or backfiring .. starter spins over quick to ... when it doesn't start .. nothing, lights light up on the dash but that is it .. no clicking or anything ... i do beleive this car still has the seatbelt interlock wired up on it .. so bypassing that relay is what i am going to try ... one other odd thing i noticed about the car ... it is my first autostick so not sure if it should be there .. under the pass side rear seat .. there is a universal solenoid mounted ... that is in line with the main battery wire going to the starter .. and one other wire as well .. the solenoid it's self isn't hooked up (the connections that kick it on and off... it still puzzles me as to why that solenoid is there ... the one on the starter is still there .. and it is hooked up (it is the one that engages with the ignition) ... any other things someone can think of for me to check out .. let me know ... maybe someone had installed a starter booster and then took it offline? You are not talking about a relay right? > ok, this is a 74 autostick bug ... belongs to my mom ... with a funny > problem ... i think i know what it is .. but posting here in case [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > any other things someone can think of for me to check out .. let me > know ... well i am not sure what a 'starter booster' would be ... the solenoid peice i am talking about .. is like the old ford solenoids that would be mounted on the firewall of the car ... since they did not have a solenoid mounted on the starter ... there is a wire ran to one of the bigger terminals from the battery .. and then from the other large terminal there is a wire ran down to the main terminal on the starter .. and another one ran to one of the autostick modules ... (that i think has to do with engaging the clutch peice for the autostick, but not for sure) Yes it sounds like someone used that external solenoid as a starter booster. Like Speedy said, you have to check, clean and tighten all connections at various spots along that circuit. The ign switch could be faulty. Or a loose neutral safety switch plug. It almost sounds like that solenoid is still in the circuit! 8^) Somewhere there is a drop in current or faulty component! I would suspect that external solenoid! > well i am not sure what a 'starter booster' would be ... > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > autostick modules ... (that i think has to do with engaging the clutch > peice for the autostick, but not for sure) ok where exactly is the neutral saftey switch located on the chassis? so i can check and clean it's connection as well ... and is there a proper way to check to see if the switch is good or bad? (ohms, etc) ... > ok where exactly is the neutral saftey switch located on the chassis? > so i can check and clean it's connection as well ... and is there a > proper way to check to see if the switch is good or bad? (ohms, > etc) ... The switch is up front on the nosecone. There are 4 wires. The 2 you are concerned with are the heavier ones. The switch contacts should measure less than 2-3 Ohms as a rough guess. Jim So this switch is on the transmission nose cone (FRONT of it) LEFT SIDE IIRC. You can access the NSS from underneath the car, but don't mistake it for the other switches on the trans. I think that there are 3-4 total switches on your auto stick trans (reverse lights, NSS, temperature sensor?). The important NSS wires should be thicker (usually red and red/white IIRC) and you can temporarily connect the 2 wires together to eliminate this switch being a problem. Been way too many years/decades since I have seen an autostick running, so I might have made some mistakes. Please someone correct me.  Signaturelater, dave (One out of many daves) >> ok where exactly is the neutral saftey switch located on the chassis? >> so i can check and clean it's connection as well ... and is there a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jim okay .. i am up in arkansas now looking at her bug ... bypassing the seatbelt interlock at the solenoid didn't resolve the issue ... on the ford relay .. there are only 3 wires hooked to it ... one wire running from the battery to one of the large posts ... and on the large post on the other side ... the larger red and black striped wire has two eye terminals on it and is bolted to the other side .. nothing else is hooked up to it .. i can go to the starter it's self and jumper from the main power wire to the solenoid terminal and it will turn over ... and start (motor has always started up quick) ... one thing i noticed .. while it was started i could not put the car into gear (this is an autostick remember) ... i am going to go back out in just a moment and short out the two terminals on the plug for the ignition switch and see if it tries to start there ... if it doesn't start there .. then it sounds like it may be the neutral saftey switch? ... any other hints or ideas? .. i will check this a few times before leaving to head back to louisiana later this afternoon ... hopefully can get it figured out before leaving ... if not .. looks like i will be back up here on another day in the next month... ok, i short out the two terminals on the ignition switch plug and get nothing ... so switch isn't the problem ... and starter / solenoid isn't either ... > ok, i short out the two terminals on the ignition switch plug and get > nothing ... so switch isn't the problem ... and starter / solenoid > isn't either ... Good sleuthing! Jumper the Neutral switch. Should have heavy Red wire and a Red/Blk: http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/schem/73_auto.jpg Speedy Jim http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/ ok i jumpered the neutral switch ... and it still wouldn't turn over .. so i pulled the ignition switch plug again .. and now i can get it to turn over when jumpering it .. so looks like the ignition switch is bad aslo ... its a brand new one .. heh quality part lol ... while trying to see if i could get it to start since it hasnt been ran in a bit (prob a few weeks) .. it wouldn't kick ... but i noticed the fuelt filter that is in line from the fuel tank to the fuel pump has hardly any fuel in it ... it's a pretty big clear filter .. i think it might need a smaller one in it's place ... not sure if the pump can pull that much pressure to suck the fuel back through the line ... what is a source for a quality ignition switch? ... this is the smooth body one .. not with the little tab sticking off one side at the end of the lip ... knowing my mom it may just be dry on gas to so going to pick up a few gallons and bring back to the house then disc the filter and see if i can get it to flow without it there and fill it up manually ... getting a little closer to having it up again .. oh the joys of working on em! > > ok, i short out the two terminals on the ignition switch plug and get > > nothing ... so switch isn't the problem ... and starter / solenoid [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Speedy Jimhttp://www.nls.net/mp/volks/ ok i jumpered the neutral switch ... and it still wouldn't turn over .. so i pulled the ignition switch plug again .. and now i can get it to turn over when jumpering it .. so looks like the ignition switch is bad aslo ... its a brand new one .. heh quality part lol ... while trying to see if i could get it to start since it hasnt been ran in a bit (prob a few weeks) .. it wouldn't kick ... but i noticed the fuelt filter that is in line from the fuel tank to the fuel pump has hardly any fuel in it ... it's a pretty big clear filter .. i think it might need a smaller one in it's place ... not sure if the pump can pull that much pressure to suck the fuel back through the line ... what is a source for a quality ignition switch? ... this is the smooth body one .. not with the little tab sticking off one side at the end of the lip ... knowing my mom it may just be dry on gas to so going to pick up a few gallons and bring back to the house then disc the filter and see if i can get it to flow without it there and fill it up manually ... getting a little closer to having it up again .. oh the joys of working on em! > > > ok, i short out the two terminals on the ignition switch plug and get > > > nothing ... so switch isn't the problem ... and starter / solenoid [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > getting a little closer to having it up again .. oh the joys of > working on em! scratch the part about getting it to run .. i need a sign that says pay attention .. when i was jumping it to get it to start i didnt do another jumper over to the ignition ... so all i need now is a quality ignition switch ... >>>>ok, i short out the two terminals on the ignition switch plug and get >>>>nothing ... so switch isn't the problem ... and starter / solenoid [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > another jumper over to the ignition ... so all i need now is a quality > ignition switch ... There are no quality ignition switches! :-( However, most of the switch failures are caused by overheating (internally) due to the high current drawn by the starter solenoid. OhOh! There you go again! When you are out picking up a new switch (be sure to get the correct one as it changed mid-way thru the '74 model), pick up a Bosch generic relay to use for the "hard start" circuit. That will replace the clunky Ford relay. If you get stuck, e-mail me as it may be faster than Usenet. Speedy Jim http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/ > OhOh! There you go again! hehe....relay...but at least you gave a proper fix and the relay is an addition to the system and not a cover up.... <G> > > OhOh! There you go again! > >hehe....relay...but at least you gave a proper fix and the relay is an >addition to the system and not a cover up.... > ><G> Have you heard of the scifi geek battle cry, "Han shot first!"? We can have a ACVW battle cry, "The starter relay is an *addition*!" SignatureMichael Cecil http://home.roadrunner.com/~macecil/ http://home.roadrunner.com/~safehex/ http://home.roadrunner.com/~macecil/hackingvista/ >> > OhOh! There you go again! >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > We can have a ACVW battle cry, "The starter relay is an *addition*!" an actual upgrade to a system is great....even if it is just to err on the side of "safety"(safety being relative in this instance, meaning to help prevent burning up multiple inadequate parts in a short time) ..... my only beef with any type of "hard start relay" is when it's slapped on to cover up said bad part... > >> > OhOh! There you go again! > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > - Show quoted text - hehe .. most all of this car is 'said bad part' .. i am just slowly eliminating them... I have had to use "relays" to supply the starter with energy from 2 batteries (24 volts) after installing corvairs engines in some kit cars. This certain type of relay will allow the system to charge both batteries at 12 volts but supply the starter with 24 volts. I am with you about NOT using relays (starter boosters) to compensate for failing components. But even BOSCH sometimes recommends the starter booster kits for some VWs. ;-) Signaturelater, dave (One out of many daves) >>> > OhOh! There you go again! >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > only beef with any type of "hard start relay" is when it's slapped on to > cover up said bad part... also, curious .. how would the ford solenoid normally be wired up for a 'booster' ... so i can make for sure thats what it is doing there and that it is hooked up right ... > also, curious .. how would the ford solenoid normally be wired up for > a 'booster' ... so i can make for sure thats what it is doing there > and that it is hooked up right ... If the 2 small posts aren't connected to anything, then it won't do a thing. Here is a how-to on the installation: http://laudeman.com/bug_solenoid.html (from another source) Jim hmmm ok thanks that will help some ... this ford relay isn't hooked up then ... it may have been at one time but was disconnected partially ... the wire that it says to put on the S terminal ... is going back to the solenoid on the factory starter ... so will have to sort through it .. and check the other stuff as well ... i am sure i will have some more questions friday once i am there and able to look at it more .. but thanks for the advice so far. > hmmm ok thanks that will help some ... this ford relay isn't hooked up > then ... it may have been at one time but was disconnected [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > i am sure i will have some more questions friday once i am there and > able to look at it more .. but thanks for the advice so far. scratch that last message ... now i understand how it is supposed to wire up ... it is for sure this one isn't wired that way ... > ok, this is a 74 autostick bug ... belongs to my mom ... with a funny > problem ... i think i know what it is .. but posting here in case [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > any other things someone can think of for me to check out .. let me > know ... This is what you're starter wiring looked like originally (minus the seatbelt interlock): http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/schem/73_auto.jpg E-17 is the tranny Neutral switch. D is the Ignition switch. The Ford "relay" was often used to get sufficient current to the starter solenoid to pull it in. You say it isn't hooked up, but I wonder... You can find the instructions for bypassing the seatbelt interlock on this page of my web site: http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/htm/elec.htm Miscellaneous Section But before digging into the Interlock try these tests: Jumper the starter solenoid underneath like this: http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/schem/starter4.gif Make sure brakes are on and shift in Neutral! If key is On, the engine may start. That will tell you if the starter is OK. Next, pull the Black plug off the back of the Ignition switch. The back of the plug (wiring side) will look like this: http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/schem/Ign_Plug.gif Insert a jumper (aka paperclip) from #50 to #30. If the starter runs, you know that the transmission Neutral safety switch AND the starter AND the Interlock AND (perhaps) the Ford relay are all OK. If all those items are OK, suspicion falls on the Ignition switch. If easier, reverse the order of the tests. Post back any clues you find and we'll go from there. Speedy Jim http://www.nls.net/mp/volks/ "I have no use for a car which has more spark plugs than a cow has teats!" Henry Ford, when advised that Chevrolet was introducing a 6-cylinder engine. hmm, thanks for that info ... the ignition switch has already been replaced, that is what i thought it was at first ... the ford relay has been replaced as well ... on those type of relays .. there are 4 terminals ... 2 large ones (one on each side) and two small ones (in the center between the two large ones) .. the only terminals that have wires hooked too them are the 2 large ones ... one side from the battery, then out that side to the starter and to a peice for the autostick on jumping the starter, have done that already. and it starts fine .. even when it 'wont start' with the key ... i can jump it off and it starts right up ... i haven't tried to jump it from the plug off the ignition tho .. will have to try that ... have not checked the neutral safey switch at all yet .. forgot about that peice ... it doesn't seem to have a set pattern on when it will and won't start up ... when i get up there friday i am sure it will start right up ... so will let it run for a while and then see if it will stop and start again ... (it is a pain working on a bug that is 100 miles away) ... so other then the information i gave right now, i have little more information till friday when i am up there, ... at that time i can post my findings from jumpering off the switch plug .. and will retry the starter again to make sure .. and snap a pic of the ford relay to show what wires are hooked up to it... |
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