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Car Forum / Volkswagen / Water Cooled Volkswagen Cars / October 2007

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08 VW models

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Elbert - 13 Oct 2007 04:38 GMT
Is this the place to find out more info related to the VW TDI diesels?

I've been watching the group for  a few days...   Might be interested
in buying a 08 VW Jetta.

Any other good VW newsgroups?
-----------
Elbert
ask@me.com
Madesio - 13 Oct 2007 08:23 GMT
>Is this the place to find out more info related to the VW TDI diesels?

Sure, why not.

>I've been watching the group for  a few days...   Might be interested
>in buying a 08 VW Jetta.

Close friend of mine just bought a brand new TDI Jetta. Hell of a car
if you ask me. Real clean, it's a nice cruiser. The new diesels run
much cleaner and quieter than ever.

>Any other good VW newsgroups?

No.

Signature

Madesio

Jim Behning - 13 Oct 2007 11:45 GMT
>Is this the place to find out more info related to the VW TDI diesels?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Elbert
>ask@me.com

www.tdiclub.com
Joseph Meehan - 13 Oct 2007 12:45 GMT
>>Is this the place to find out more info related to the VW TDI diesels?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> www.tdiclub.com

   As Jim noted,  tdiclub has a great deal of information on VW Diesels
past present and future.

   That said there really is not much available about VW diesels for 2008
yet.  A lot will depend on the EPA testing that has not been completed yet.

Signature

Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Jim Behning - 14 Oct 2007 12:08 GMT
>>>Is this the place to find out more info related to the VW TDI diesels?
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>    That said there really is not much available about VW diesels for 2008
>yet.  A lot will depend on the EPA testing that has not been completed yet.

That is amazing that 2008 model testing has not been completed but I
guess they are not shooting for 4 months early delivery that used to
be an American tradition. Used to be as some new models are available
6 months before the calendar year starts.
Al Rudderham - 14 Oct 2007 22:44 GMT
>That is amazing that 2008 model testing has not been completed but I
>guess they are not shooting for 4 months early delivery that used to
>be an American tradition. Used to be as some new models are available
>6 months before the calendar year starts.

I've heard the new TDIs will be early 2009 models, not 2008.
Andrew Sullivan - 15 Oct 2007 16:32 GMT
On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:44:23 -0400, in rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
(message <gc35h3d47ab40m7p5esiev9q59g1cebt97@4ax.com>), Al Rudderham
<xal.rudderhamx@sympatico.ca> wrote:

> I've heard the new TDIs will be early 2009 models, not 2008.

That is certainly the case in Canada; I don't know about the US.

At issue is the fuel that is available.  Briefly (and horribly
oversimplified), the older type of diesel fuel has some substances in
it that are incompatible with newer filter technologies.  Those filters
are what enable the diesels to achieve lower emissions than what
diesels have traditionally put out.  Europe has been making great
strides in diesel fuels for many years, but North America did not adopt
those standards.  For instance, the EU rule was a sulphur limit of 50
ppm by 2005, with availability of 10 ppm.  By 2009, only 10 ppm fuel
will be allowed for highway vehicles.  Canada would only guarantee
availability of < 500 mg/kg fuels as of Sept of this year, although 15
mg/kg fuel was available below the northern service area by last year.
Automakers have had to test only their old technologies, because with
the general availability of high-sulphur fuels (and no way to guarantee
someone couldn't accidentally fill up with them, causing expensive to
repair emission-control problems), automakers have been reluctant to
import their latest technology.  The result is that they can't pass the
current emissions limits using diesels, so they can't sell the engines.

Part of the reluctance in North America has been attributed to the
trucking industry, which didn't want expensive changes imposed.  Since
it was overwhelmingly a stronger diesel consumer than passenger cars,
it had a much greater say in the direction of the industry.  Whether
this is an accurate attribution is something I can't say, since I'm not
an industry person.

Note that the older diesels _don't_ get all the emissions benefits of
the new fuels as they come available -- several of the benefits come
from both the filters and some very clever exhasut and catalyst
systems that will gradually become available.  Interestingly, though,
with the right technology, a lightweight diesel could easily surpass
the fuel use of current hybrids, with relatively similar emissions.
Hybrids are heavy, due to their batteries, and by putting smaller
engines in very lightweight cars, diesels could be a good alternative.
(That won't happen, of course, because the trend in automaking is for
heavier cars.  People want giant pillows and huge piles of steel around
themselves, in case of collision.  All thoughts of road design, driver
training, and handling are secondary to this naive conception of
"safety".  But that's a rant for another day.)

For lots of interesting stuff about diesels in general, I suggest
http://www.dieselnet.com/.  It's an industry forum, note, so you don't
get all the criticism that is perhaps justified.

Best regards,
Andrew Sullivan
pull bell to reply by mail.
Joseph Meehan - 16 Oct 2007 02:09 GMT
> On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:44:23 -0400, in rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
> (message <gc35h3d47ab40m7p5esiev9q59g1cebt97@4ax.com>), Al Rudderham
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Andrew Sullivan
> pull bell to reply by mail.

   That was an outstanding post!

Signature

Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Jim Behning - 16 Oct 2007 04:16 GMT
>On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:44:23 -0400, in rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
>(message <gc35h3d47ab40m7p5esiev9q59g1cebt97@4ax.com>), Al Rudderham
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>Andrew Sullivan
>pull bell to reply by mail.
I don't know if it was on this group or not but someone posted a
diesel technology article. They talked about new exhaust stuff that
would practically eliminate the aftermarket chips and exhaust that
make cars and trucks belchmasters. They have neat exhaust pipe that
works like a jet engine throwing flames out the side of the vehicle.
Technology is a wonderful thing.

http://www.mxcom.net/hearst/motor/drivetrains/002/072007_10.pdf
Andrew Sullivan - 16 Oct 2007 17:07 GMT
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007 23:16:15 -0400, in rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
(message <31b8h3li5e655u4v8mrtvhp1289k7eekod@4ax.com>), Jim Behning
<jimbehning@doesthisblockpork.mindspring.com> wrote:

> I don't know if it was on this group or not but someone posted a
> diesel technology article. They talked about new exhaust stuff that
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> http://www.mxcom.net/hearst/motor/drivetrains/002/072007_10.pdf

I see that link in the tdiclub archives, anyway.  (If you're interested
in the TDIs, that's an excellent resource.  What a buncha car geeks we
are.)  It's a very cool article.

It's not quite "throwing flames out the side of the vehicle" ;-).  It's
basically just heating the soot so that it burns up to be ash.  If you
have a self-cleaning oven, you'll know what I mean: the crap that fell
on the oven wall doesn't go away; it just gets turned into a fine white
powder as opposed to the former black stain.

I suspect the book remains open on whether this will actually be an
improvement in emissions.  We'll go from soot heavy on carbon to some
kind of ash with properties we'll be learning about in the future.  It
might turn out to be worse in some ways -- the heavy particulate that
is the carbon soot in traditional diesel exhaust might be more easily
trapped and disposed of by our respiratory systems than is a fine, very
light ash that will inevitably blow around.  After all, basic physics
and chemistry tells us the material doesn't _go away_.  It just changes
form in some way.

This is not entirely dissimilar to the issues that cropped up after the
introduction of catalysts to gasoline engines.  It's true that they
reduced NOx emissions, and also that as a nice side effect, we
dramatically lowered lead concentrations in the air (lead's a nasty
neurotoxin, and there's compelling evidence that eliminating lead in
gasoline was a much more significant improvement to public health than
the current panic around accidentally smelling tobacco smoke as someone
walks by on the street will ever produce).  On the other hand, we now
have wrecking yards that have yet another serious source of extremely
toxic industrial waste.  You do _not_ want the stuff inside failed
catalytic converters getting into the air or water.

Every tech fix comes with its own set of problems.  Overall, if we want
cleaner transportation, we need to drive less (and fly less, actually,
which means just moving around less in practice).  But that doesn't
mean we should do nothing.  It just means we should be sceptical of
solutions that promise to solve everything.  What these new
technologies do is meet the requirements of the stuff we're already
measuring.  It could be that what we're not measuring (because it isn't
there yet) is far more dangerous.

Best,
Andrew Sullivan
pull bell to reply by email
TBerk - 16 Oct 2007 21:12 GMT
[quote]
the trend in automaking is for
heavier cars.  People want giant pillows and huge piles of steel
around
themselves, in case of collision.  All thoughts of road design,
driver
training, and handling are secondary to this naive conception of
"safety".  But that's a rant for another day.)

[/quote]

Yes!, Preach brother!

oh.... sorry.

Never mind.

TBerk
Timothy J. Lee - 24 Oct 2007 18:45 GMT
>At issue is the fuel that is available.  Briefly (and horribly
>oversimplified), the older type of diesel fuel has some substances in
>it that are incompatible with newer filter technologies.

The sulfur in US on-road diesel fuel was supposed to be limited to
15ppm (versus the older 500ppm limit) by late 2006, in time for 2007
model year cars.

Signature

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome.
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

Andrew Sullivan - 25 Oct 2007 15:29 GMT
On 24 Oct 2007 17:45:12 GMT, in rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled
(message <471f84a8$0$14077$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>), Timothy J. Lee
<remove22@sonic.net> wrote:

>>oversimplified), the older type of diesel fuel has some substances in
>>it that are incompatible with newer filter technologies.
>
> The sulfur in US on-road diesel fuel was supposed to be limited to
> 15ppm (versus the older 500ppm limit) by late 2006, in time for 2007
> model year cars.

It was.  The _problem_ is twofold:

1.    There was no plan to replace all storage, filling, and
transport technology, no guarantee that allowable high-sulphur diesel
uses (marine fuel, IIRC) from the same period wouldn't be carried in
the same transport on different occasions, and no requirement that any
of thise stuff be taken out of service and cleaned prior to changeover
to the new fuel requirements.

2.    Failures of the emissions systems due to fouling in the first
[mumble] miles are the responsibility of the manufacturer, and must be
fixed under warranty.

The combination of the above means, in effect, that the automaker can't
be sure owners will not, quite by accident, use the wrong fuel.  This
was solved in the switch from leaded to unleaded gas by a requirement
that the fuelling necks be different sizes (you couldn't put a leaded
nozzle into an unleaded filler neck).  That worked because for some
time leaded and unleaded gas were both available, so the infrastructure
was built clean.  Not so with the diesel stuff.

In effect, then, the regulators were asking the auto makers, who would
have to pay for mistakes, to trust that none would be made.  If you
were the automaker, how hard would you work under those circumstances
to pass all the tests necessary to certify by 2007?  Keep in mind that
a wholesale replacement of all the emissions equipment on a car these
days can effectively wipe out the profit on the vehicle.  You also have
to get the dealer network to co-operate, and they don't like to do
warranty service because they're often stuck paying part of the cost.
So the dealers will all balk, and the car buyers will be angry that
they're getting shafted.

On the whole, it's just easier to take longer to bring the diesels back
to market under safer conditions.  This is a classic example, by the
way, of how regulation can have somewhat perverse effects.  It was
probably better than the alternative ("do nothing"), but it still
caused the elimination of one cleaner option from the market for some
period of time.  "Economics 101" doesn't work in the actual ecomomy,
and "Government 101" doesn't work in the actual political environment,
and what we get in reality is the union set of the worst alternatives
each can produce :)

Andrew "me, cynical?" Sullivan
Toronto, ON
Pull bell to reply by mail
Baz - 15 Oct 2007 19:56 GMT
> Is this the place to find out more info related to the VW TDI diesels?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Elbert
> ask@me.com

http://www.uk-mkivs.net

Worth a look.

Baz
Greg - 18 Oct 2007 17:10 GMT
Elbert <ask@me.com> wrote in news:q8f0h3t5oihe7sbq76vi7fujo7lk2h9b3l@
4ax.com:

> Is this the place to find out more info related to the VW TDI diesels?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Elbert
> ask@me.com

Another good VW discussion group is http://forums.vwvortex.com/
 
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