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Car Forum / Volkswagen / Water Cooled Volkswagen Cars / November 2009CIS and low compression...
Hi all. Any old time CIS nuts still hanging around here? It's been a long time since I gave up my bad rabbit habit... guess I was overdue for a slip : ) Question: Should a 1.8 CIS run (at least poorly) with 55 to 60 psi compression? STOP HERE if you like, or read on if your curious for more details and got time for a long read! OK, it's not THAT long... but really I just need imput on if it should still at least be able to fire up and run with compression this low. THANKS! I've got this 86 Wolfsburg Cabriol(toil)et with 1.8 CIS... basically a 500 buck car (mistake?) with no spark... but after chasing electical gremlins finally got spark but then it still won't fire up... not even a cough! OK, I think starter is tired from the last owner cranking the snots out of it... so it doesn't spin REAL fast but with jumper cables attached it does at least spin "fair", but only for a short while. But with an injector pulled and laying on the valve cover, fuel pump running via jumper, and cranking starter I can't seem to get enough air flow to lift the fuel distributor. However, removing boot and grabbing the air flag and lifting it (quite lightly... smooth and easy) gives good fuel. A good dose of starting fluid sprayed into the boot also gets no combustion. Not even a cough or sputter. HA! I thought a no spark condition would be an easy fix but that apparently wasn't the only problem. Compression test shows only 55 on cylinder 1, and 60 on the other 3. Adding some oil didn't help. I believe the compression gauge is accurate. It's an oldie but goodie... I'll try it on another vehicle tomorrow to be sure. Even if compression is really that low, shouldn't this engine still pump enough air to make CIS work? And shouldn't it still be able to fire up and at least run like crap? It just occured to me while typing this... I guess I gotta get under it and maybe unhook the exhaust (or pull the 02 sensor) to check the possibility of excessive back pressure. But I don't think that would make low compression, but it sure might make the starter drag down. Anyway, the boot at throttle body, duct, and boot on fuel distributor all look fine (will remove and check them all again tomorrow). I'm puzzled that I can't make this thing fire up some! Or at least deliver some serious fuel. If compression gauge proves accurate, I'll probably pull the valve cover and at least check for some valve clearance. There's no coolant in the oil or in the cylinders. Timing belt is old but OK, cam timing is dead on where it belongs, and rotor in the distributor pointing at the no 1 position, the distributor is tight and the lock down bolt looks like it hasn't been touched in 25 years. The no spark problem was just a bad ground wire from ignition control module. This car "supposedly" ran pretty good before that, but I'm wondering if the spark problem was induced from someone farting around with it trying to over come this other problem? I wanted to put this on the road cheap for someone... it ain't lookin so likely now... definitely don't want to put a new starter in if the engine is junk. Maybe I'll try towing it up the road and spin her up in gear! The frequency valve ain't buzzing, so I know I got other electrical issues to chase down. And the plug is missing above the 3mm rich/lean adjusting screw so I'm sure that's been messed with... and now I'm wondering if that can be the problem. Maybe I'll set that as rich as I can (without it dumping fuel @ no air flow!) and go from there with a "tow start" ; ). Making it run "right" is a horse of a different color! And may not even be possible given how hard parts are to come by these days. (can you even get a cpr now?) But I used to do damn good with these old systems. I've revived a number of them in the past, but this is the first time I've ever had to resort to a compression test on one, ever. Maybe I'll see if I can get the frequency valve working. And of course, don't know what the cold start valve (5th injector) is doing either. But I'd prefer to chase that stuff down to make it "run better" and "start easier" after I at least get it to run. So my question again (if you made it this far)... should it be able to run with 55-60 psi compression?? If so, I'll keep plugging at it. Body's good, top's good, interior's good, haven't checked front end parts yet,... would really like to hear it run and see what the clutch and 5 speed does! It might be a lost cause (and I don't got a 2.0 for it, nor the time to do such a transplant) : ). Thanks all! >Hi all. New plugs. Try starting. Check plugs for fuel contamination/smell. That will tell you if you are getting fuel into the engine. If they are clean, no fuel smell at all, then fuel problems still exist. If they have some fuel dampness or smell, check spark. Also try a non-contact timing light (inductive clamp on the plug wire for a spark test if you have one.) Thanks Pete! Plugs are like new. Not getting fuel. Using Snap-on timing light. I take it you agree it "should" run at 55 - 60 psi compression? I don't know how "good" spark is, but the timing light does continue to show I have spark. I'm just ready to go have at it again (for a little while). I'll update at some point! > >Hi all. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Also try a non-contact timing light (inductive clamp on the plug wire > for a spark test if you have one.) >Thanks Pete! >Plugs are like new. Not getting fuel. Using Snap-on timing light. >I take it you agree it "should" run at 55 - 60 psi compression? I'm not sure it will. With 80 it would, but not well, never tried something that low. Keep in mind that it would 'fire' with low compression but might not start/run. >I don't know how "good" spark is, but the timing light does continue to show >I have spark. >I'm just ready to go have at it again (for a little while). >I'll update at some point! Do so, and update us. >> >Hi all. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> Also try a non-contact timing light (inductive clamp on the plug wire >> for a spark test if you have one.) If you realy measured "only" 55psi then it must be leaking through the valves. Normal value is between 140...180psi! Acc to vw it is due for overhaul when it is dropped to about 105psi! You'll never get it started with almost no compression.... First check what the cause is for that low cyl. pressure! If the oil trick didn't make a difference then it must be bad valves or a very bad head gasket (unlikely) SFC I think hydrolic lifters play a role... I did finally get it running. Had to pull it up the street. Runs good, too. But still won't start by starter. It's just not cranking fast enough. The starter is just plain cooked and drawing way too much current. It's cranking like about 1/2 speed... although my 83 will start at that speed if battery is half dead (like after sitting all winter). So apparently it's a combination of slow starter and hard starting from the typical fuel ratio not ideal yet cis syndrome : ) I'm betting compression has come up after running it and building some oil pressure, but never did check it again. It had a coolant leak as well, so for all I know it's been cooked a bit... maybe valve springs are weak now? I don't know, but it didn't want to idle and I didn't dare let it run too long with the coolant leaking (hose off end of head) so I didn't do anymore tinkering. But I did drive it around the yard and out back and it runs smooth and strong... and I at least know now that the clutch is good, as well as 1st, 2nd, and reverse gears... yard too small for 3rd, 4th, and 5th : ) > If you realy measured "only" 55psi then it must be leaking through the > valves. Normal value is between 140...180psi! Acc to vw it is due for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > SFC I was going to say that you need to start with the basics. Make sure the timing belt is correct. I have seen sooo many that were many notches off including my 1.8t engine when I bought it. Oh and it had good compression (150 psi) even for a low compression engine that was 4 notches off. Yes the engine could run but might not run at full power or might be hard to start. Your compression, especially with Hyd Lifters, might be low until the lifters pump up and the engine is warm. THEN check the spark timing. CIS usually needs that cold start valve to spray a little fuel inside the intake manifold to make starting easier. Glad you got it started! ;-) Check out the main battery cable going to the starter and the main negative cable to the engine. I suggest taking them off and cleaning all surfaces. JMHO  Signaturelater, (One out of many daves) >I think hydrolic lifters play a role... > I did finally get it running. Had to pull it up the street. Runs good, [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> >> SFC > Your compression, especially with Hyd Lifters, might be low until the > lifters pump up and the engine is warm. Hmm, could you explain this one. When the lifters are drained from oil they will not hold the valves open. Maybe after a head job when the springs were removed.... SFC Have you ever heard an engine with hydraulic lifters start after sitting for a couple of months? Sometimes there is a rattle/tapping as the clearance inside of the lifter needs to be adjusted with oil or pumped up. So it might be possible that the lifters have collasped not allowing the valves to fully open and opening late & closing early. Just a theory and I can not recall ever seeing this before. NOW I have seen the reverse, where the lifters pump up too much holding the valves open and engine loses compression. That was caused by an oil pump that developed way too much oil pressure. Wild thoughts I know but possible! ;-) later, One out of many daves >> Your compression, especially with Hyd Lifters, might be low until the >> lifters pump up and the engine is warm. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > SFC Yeah, and "the basics" with an old Rabbit far beyond about any other car... : ) As soon as I new I had spark and could get fuel out an injector by lifting the air plate, I had pulled the timing cover and turned her over to TDC and timing was perfect. Of course, ignition timing at the distrib may still be off a tad but does need to be running to tune that in. And the clamping bolt still has a TON of ancient crud on it, so no-ones monkeed foolishly with it as a wrench had definitly not been on it. Anyway, before finally towing it up the road with truck and chain... I did try checking valve clearance. At first, I didn't seem to have any at all (checking the several that were obviously on the low parts of the cam lobes). Then, after dismantling my stubby little feeler gauges so I could get in there better... it seemed I could fit about anything anywhere... on up to say 0.76 everywhere. THEN I realized I was actually moving the tops of the lifters downward, which I then found I could do quite easily with my finger. And here I was thinking this thing had solid lifters! So that's when I got thinking about maybe lack of oil pressure and the slow starter / limited cranking time... I had to throw it back together with the old gasket (that was already leaking) so the cover's coming back off anyway. I'll try checking the compression again at that time... after it can start and run... but still cold engine, just out of curiosity... and post the results. I have yet to discover what the cold start valve is doing! All I did with that so far was look at it through the throttle body with my bore scope when I was doing an injector flow test. Injectors spray nicely (hope dealer still has some seals but I doubt it). Nicely balanced too. Within specs... about "Yay" much in each of the 4 Aquafina water bottles... : ) I still don't know why I could get it to at least fire once with starting fluid, though. I always thought that stuff would burn with zero compression. The frequency valve is not buzzing, the throttle cable was totally adjusted wrong and obviously being used to jack the idle up. So I need to chase down the electrical side there and suspect if Lambda is dead, so it cold start, hot start pulse, warm start fade 5 yards and punt,... : ) I'm sure none of the multiple relay diagrams in Bentley quite match up... I really think VW used to use relays as toy blocks for the kids in the waiting area and what ever configuration they happen to leave them in was the order for that days assembly! But first, I'll need to replace the starter. And since I slipped leaning over it and broke my nipple... the one that the little expansion tank hose goes onto... I'll be needing a new radiator, too. Doesn't that just SUCK! And while I'm in the suck department... one sloppy rod end in the front end is the extent of trouble there. Clutch works great but the pedal is slid over half off the pivot point and rubbing against the steering column. You guys know, down there at the bottom of the steering column where the bottom bearing has fallen out and is sitting on the little u-joint. All this (and the last paragraph) just part of "the basics" for an A1. But the wheel bearings sounded good via "chain drive" up the road : ). Brakes all sound and feel good. No 4 ways, heater blows one speed only, switch in the OFF position!, no wipers,... didn't try the aftermarket cd player yet... there's an undersized wire from under that going out to the battery that I won't be reconnecting out there... did I mention this is a Rabbit... but the battery terminals were already nice and clean (new one on the ground side) and I got all the extra ground wires hooked on nicely... including the one that had dissappeared under the fuel distributor... comes from ignition module... was the original "no spark" culprit..., who knows what the lights are doing, no horn either, so I got plenty to do. Oh yeah, and the stupid buzzer and oil light was going off, too! False alarm, I'm sure... as I've seen this on about a dozen Rabbits so far. Of course, I'll pipe up my oil pressure gauge to be sure, then bypass it. SOOOOOOO, it's sure nice to know it will run and drive before thinking about all the rest! Hopefully I'll at least have it starting and yard driving easily before it snows! (VW repairs... make for interesting conversation... if you got nuthin to positive to contribute... just flame a Honda... ) In2hoppn > I was going to say that you need to start with the basics. > Make sure the timing belt is correct. I have seen sooo many that were many [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > >> > >> SFC Hey all, Just a brief update. Got a battery charger with a good boost for cranking and was able to start it by the starter! Then tracked down the no frequency valve buzz to a bad relay. It's amazing how much rust /muck you can dump out of a relay, clean it up, and have it working fine again! That gave me the old frequency valve buzz it needed. Then vantage meter on the cold start valve showed that to be working. Fired her up again, and it was pretty rough from being way to rich... had to back off the idle mixture screw a LONG WAY and then open the idle screw up and she purrs like a kitten and responds to throttle snap beautifully. I had set the mixture screw up higher at an earlier time, but not by THAT much. Next is to investigate O2 sensor (probably just pop a new one in unless it looks pretty new) and check out the dwell on that frequency valve. But first I got to replace the radiator... didn't dare run it any longer without coolant... don't particularily want to end up replacing the waterpump as it has no rad in it now. Radiator is supposed to be in today. Looking like it will be a driver soon!!!!!!!! In2hoppn (silly rabbit, diesels is for trucks) > I was going to say that you need to start with the basics. > Make sure the timing belt is correct. I have seen sooo many that were many [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > >> > >> SFC I can see the smile from here! lol congrats and keep us updated! > Hey all, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > In2hoppn (silly rabbit, diesels is for trucks) >I can see the smile from here! lol > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> valve buzz to a bad relay. It's amazing how much rust /muck you can dump >> out of a relay, clean it up, and have it working fine again! I don't know why VW's are prone to do this. I've lost count of the number of relays I've opened, cleaned, burnished the contacts on, and reassembled! Keep us posted on how you are doing once on the road! >That gave me >> the old frequency valve buzz it needed. Then vantage meter on the cold [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> In2hoppn (silly rabbit, diesels is for trucks) Back again! I finally had to get rid of my old computer with windowsME that I been running since year 2000. So getting this new one up and running plus retrieving all my old data before clunking out the old one... left me with no news group access until now. "I will never buy another VW" "I will never work on another VW" "I hate fricken VW" ...wonder how many time I said that today... along with the colorful language I can't seem to give up... ... but I'm finally smiling again! Man, talk about getting wound up aggravated to the limit! Got some injector seal in her and replaced a cracked coolant flange. Well it started OK to drive in from out back and do that, but then it wouldn't start again! So I pull the plugs and clean and dry them, then it starts but doesn't want to idle. Then won't start again. Well finally get it running and idling again, and trying to get the ignition timing set and set the idle mixture and of course the idle speed, and how all these things can affect one another... and just when I finally think I've got it about right and the dwell meter is looking good but doesn't like the O2 sensor very much so I leave it unhooked... it starts idling way down again... THEN... coolant starts pumping out from under the cap and making a mess all over the place because the radiator fan ain't working! So, I get's that mess all cleaned up and then, of course, it won't fricken start again! Soooooo, I go to my favorite parts place for a starter (25 minute drive to get there) to discover they don't really have one there. But the store up the highway (another 1/2 hour or so away) "has one for sure". Get there, open the box... starter doesn't even look close... never even seen a starter quite like it on anything. So the guy insists it's the right one (LOL)... then suggests it's a "late model" in that year and looks at a year newer (I'm still laughin out loud, but it ain't funny) and tell him this isn't even a vw starter. Then I look at the number on the box (that he keeps saying is right) and see the number on the starter is different... wrong starter in the box. So off I go for another 1/2 hour drive to another store. Finally... the right starter... and after enough driving... get it home and installed... tripple square bolt heads that have been abused before (yup, was really luvin VW again) but.............. TA DA! It's spins a lot faster and for a lot longer! And it starts! Even without battery charger w/boost! Yeee Haaa! NOW... anybody got a good wiring diagram for the radiator fan in this rig? It's 1987 Cabriolet, and it has 2 wire fan, AND 2 wire connector on the radiator temp sensor. I had to swap the fan motor out when I changed the radiator. Wires had been spliced previously. Currently, both leads to radiator fan show continuity to ground so somethings wired wrong. Mitchell is useless for this car and my Bentley and Haynes only go to 1984. Looking at a variety of years in Mitchell shows double relays for a couple different multi-speed fan setups... both showing 3 prong temp sensor in radiator (mine has only 2). Another schematic shows circuit from fuse 1 to radiator temp sensor to fan to ground... no relay involved. I know the earlier ones had a relay for fan that was switched by the radiator sensor and would think this has a relay like that??????? Thanks if anyone can find a schematic that makes sense for this one! Maybe a relay panel diagram, too?? Electricals is such a pain without accurate info! OK, now to see if my computer is really going to post this message... >>I can see the smile from here! lol >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >>> >>> In2hoppn (silly rabbit, diesels is for trucks) Life may have it challenges but it is usually still worth living! <g> Well you have success with your posts! <g> Now are you running Windows 7 or Vista or XP? Does your Cabriolet have a/c? I have seen the wiring changed so that the radiator fan gets it power almost directly from the battery (fused) instead of through a relay. Too many wiring diagrams to even try to remember how yours could be. You may have to follow those wires from the radiator fan switch to find out where they go! I usually find wires corroded right around the battery which might affect the fan's operation. I find a lot of problems are usually caused by those that work on a VW before. :-( You might find some repair information, in English, here http://www.volkswagen.msk.ru/ later, One out of many daves > Back again! I finally had to get rid of my old computer with windowsME > that I been running since year 2000. So getting this new one up and [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > Electricals is such a pain without accurate info! > OK, now to see if my computer is really going to post this message... OK, found interesting stuff with the rad fan... but before warming her up for a test I decided to try to fix the clutch pedal which had slid off it's pivot pin and was half-cocked against the steering column... and clutch was engaging and disengaging this way. NOW, after fixing that, the clutch would not disengage... grind gears, or lurch if try to start in gear. SOOOOOOOO, I start adjusting the clutch cable... and adjust it some more, and some more, and some more and finally it will shift into gear... and now, it will not engage. WTF??? I bring the adjustment back almost to where I started and still it's JUNK (as is this whole car, sure with I never bought it, may just yank the starter and radiator and crush it). Can you really ruin a clutch by possibly over lengthing the cable housing by about 6 to 8 full turns so the the F thing will no longer engage? Maybe ended up pushing the rod in just a little too far and now it's screwed? But it's not like the clutch pedal stayed at the floor or suddenly went low. I did hit the starter while in reverse and it did lurch with quite a thump. Maybe that broke something?? This thing is JUNK I guess... I should have known better... every little thing I've tried to do on this turd has been insane... it will never be worth the cost of a clutch job... > Life may have it challenges but it is usually still worth living! <g> > Well you have success with your posts! <g> [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >> Electricals is such a pain without accurate info! >> OK, now to see if my computer is really going to post this message... >Back again! I finally had to get rid of my old computer with windowsME that >I been running since year 2000. So getting this new one up and running plus [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >Electricals is such a pain without accurate info! >OK, now to see if my computer is really going to post this message... I have the Bentley for the '88 cab, which IIRC is the same. I'll see if I can scan the fan electric page for you. I'll need an email address to send it to you, so obfuscate yours and post it. (Don't email to my address in the forum, it's a dummy). If you can't do that we'll figure out another way to get it to you. >>Back again! I finally had to get rid of my old computer with windowsME >>that [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > If you can't do that we'll figure out another way to get it to you. But don't the scammers and spammers have de-obfuscate software now? So to totally obfuscate beyond de-obfuscation... it's me as you see me posted here and my provider is metrocast. Wouldn't mind the whole electrical schematic if you can, relay location if you got it... don't need any of the troubleshoot or r&r stuff! Thanks! Cancel the request for schematics... I'm done with it! I did get the cooling fan working properly! The short to ground was someone hack job of wiring a lighted switch at the dashboard (a wire I earlier thought was for the cd player). It was connected to an enclosed male spade plug that is apparently there for the A/C option? Removed that and traced it out to all being ready to go if the temp sensor actually closes when hot. Did finally run her up to temp and it's working great. Unfortunately, in between time I fixed the clutch pedal but then apparently wiped out the clutch when I hit the starter while in reverse. Now she don't move at all in any gear. Idling with clutch out I can shift into 3,4, and 5. I need to pust the clutch in to get 1st or reverse, so it's still doing something barely enough to turn the shaft. Clutch job is beyond what I can do here so it's all been a waste. What sucks is the total money I spent could have put new tires and struts in my Camry. No more dubbin for me. A lesson I thought I learned in the past and hope it sticks this time : ). ahhhh don't throw in the towel, just put it off for a little while if you are frustrated. you have come sooooo far too. ;-) clutch is doable! Now are you sure you did not lengthen the cable too far? gotta have some free play/slack! heck if starting in reverse just 1 time caused the clutch to go out, then it was going out very soon. bottom line is.............do you want to drive this car? > Cancel the request for schematics... > I'm done with it! [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > more dubbin for me. A lesson I thought I learned in the past and hope it > sticks this time : ). > ahhhh don't throw in the towel, just put it off for a little while if you > are frustrated. > you have come sooooo far too. ;-) OK, but only if you insist! Actually, after a good nights sleep (good for me anyway)... I decided when I woke up this morning that I'd get an oil pressure gauge on it and just make sure the warning buzzer sometimes going off is actually a false alarm (seems it always is, but this does have a stubborn clicking lifter when cold too). THEN, I will roll it out from my work area (carport, add cold air and no hoist to my ongoing frustrations...) and push up the hill and out back out of the way. > clutch is doable! Not for me, or at least not here. My dad has a small shop so maybe at some point down the road? I'm pretty limited in what I can do, as I have disabling spine problems (primary frustration that does shorten my tolerance for much of the b.s. when working on about anything) and I don't like occupying his shop as it is only a single bay. I'd want to take it apart 1st, then get parts... I'm sure it would take at least 2 days. But maybe if at some point I know for sure he won't be working... > Now are you sure you did not lengthen the cable too far? gotta have some > free play/slack! That was my first thought when I suddenly went from not disengaging to zero grip, but I never lost free play. It's a bit flaky at the firewall end. The housing is loose there so free play is obvious even from under the hood. Next, I wondered if over adjusting it caused a problem at the release bearing end. But again, I never went beyond losing free play at the top of the pedal. > heck if starting in reverse just 1 time caused the clutch to go out, then > it was going out very soon. Back when I first got it running (towing up the road with a truck and long chain)... the clutch was smooth and strong. I deliberately worked it hard and it was great. Only thing was the pedal was cocked at an angle and rubbing on the steering column (which reminds me, I gotta finish doing something to keep that bearing from falling out again). It was a stupid thing to do, but in hindsight I know what I did. I was grinding 1st and reverse, so I shut it off and popped it into reverse. Then I hit the key quickly, wanting to see if clutch was really engaged, or just dragging enough to spin the shaft. Parking brake was on and unfortunately holding much better than the average rabbit. I only hit the key quick, but it make quite a huge thud, really kicked the engine against the mounts. It told me the clutch definitely was engaged. This was the last time it got any grip. The question now is, what's the "weakest link" (that's WWWWWWWWWWEEkest link), because something obviously let go. Is it possible I wiped the splines off the tranny shaft, at the clutch disc or even something further in? Or would one assume (dangerous word, unless assuming the worst) the teeth in the clutch disc would sheer off 1st? It's such a backwards setup, and I've never actually had one apart. Pedal feels fine, and there is only slight change in sound when letting clutch out. Past experiences and general guessing can be fun here, but I don't think I'll know without taking it apart and I'm just not in the position to do that. Maybe I can just unbolt the tranny and slide it over for a peak. And if it's the disc, just slip it down out, slide another one in and clamp it up. All fixed within the hour! : ) Maybe have to adjust the lu-lu valve just enough to keep it from overriding the trestle gear and making the discabubulator go thunk. Drain and refill the blinker fluid. Rotate the headlights and do a dipstick alignment. OK, all joking aside... I got an old bumper jack around here somewhere... if I can just jack the front bumper up enough to unbolt and change the car... > bottom line is.............do you want to drive this car? I'm not desperate to, but it would be nice to be able to. I bought it cheap as a "no spark" car. It's not rusted, but does have some damage to the hood. Grille's broken, but I happen to have a new one that will fit it. Roof is excellent, interior is fair. Fixing a "no spark" car sounded right up my ally. Well, my "no spark" car still didn't run after fixing spark(except by towing it, and clutch worked great for starting it btw) and has since gone into new starter, new radiator, used radiator fan, new coolant flange, new injector seals, and it still will need at least a pair of tires and a rod end, and now it needs a clutch? SWEEEEET. I learned a long time ago that doing a buy/fix/sell for profit is futile so never attempt to do that. But ideally, buy/fix/drive a little/and sell for break even justifies the endeavor. There comes a certain satisfaction in auto resurrection and I always know someone that ends up needing a cheap drivable car. It's always nice when it's a win win deal and we can beat the system we live under. If I can sell it for 600 like it sits, I'm still taking a loss. I don't think it would even sell for that much. I'll put it on CL and see though... maybe I'll get LUCKY! Hey, it's even Friday the 13th today... that should help... knock on my head... lol yep sounds like you have been having fun! ;-) I always double check the free play at the cable by just pulling up on it at the threaded part so that it lifts the release bearing lever. I don't trust the free play at the pedal much! No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to separate the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you to drop the transmission out of the vehicle. Now of course I check all of the CV joints to make sure that they are not broken and are still attached! >> ahhhh don't throw in the towel, just put it off for a little while if you >> are frustrated. [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > I'll put it on CL and see though... maybe I'll get LUCKY! Hey, it's > even Friday the 13th today... that should help... knock on my head... quotes and comments below... > I always double check the free play at the cable by just pulling up on it > at the threaded part so that it lifts the release bearing lever. > I don't trust the free play at the pedal much! It's easier than getting in and out of the car 20 time (LOL), but I always fine tune final amount of freeplay at pedal based on actual release point. If it's too high or too low, it makes it drive awkward. I always have to have it exactly measure out as "just feels right"! > No quick and easy way to change the clutch! AFAIK you will have to > separate the transmission from the engine and that usually requires you to > drop the transmission out of the vehicle. Yeah, but didn't my "dream" at least make it sound better? : ) > Now of course I check all of the CV joints to make sure that they are not > broken and are still attached! Yeah, that would be nice if I was just spinning an axle or inboard flange... but I think that would be more than the syncs could handle, as I can shift 3rd, 4th, and 5th pretty quickly with out all that much resistance. But there is some resistance (that pushing the clutch in eliminates), and if I slowly add pressure the engine idle speed will slow down, until it drops into gear. Then when in gear, the is no change in idle speed. I'm picturing the shaft turning inside the gears and holding pressure on the syncros putting a sideways load on it adding to the otherwise only slightest friction there... as in clutch OK, trans not. I supposed I better get my head under there and look at the drive flanges, but I'm quite certain it's not spinning diff. I've been looking at exploded view in Bentley (84 4 speeds) but it's really not that clear how it all works and what would let go the easiest... I'd say at most, the only thing turning besides the flywheel is clutch disk, pressure plate (clutch pedal feels perfect still) and maybe trans main shaft only? As much as I hate the "throw away" system we have to live in, the cost to have it fixed is more than it's worth if paying to get it done. It's on CL for 600 in case someone locally is maybe into clutch jobs. If I had a hoist that I could occupy for a while, I'd love to pull it apart just to see what happened, THEN part and scrap it out if it needs more than just a clutch. But I just don't have the means. And yeah, quite a bit of stuff has to come apart and then drop the trans right out of it. Then, I could see the splines on the shaft and look inside the clutch disc (still on the engine behind/inside the flywheel). Hmmmmmmm.... wonder if I can jack it up out back... make some tall jack stands... about 6 foot tall...! HA! If I ever do get it apart (or know who does) I'll be sure to let you know what it was. quotes and comments below... > quotes and comments below... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yeah, but didn't my "dream" at least make it sound better? : ) Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and easy clutch change. >> Now of course I check all of the CV joints to make sure that they are not >> broken and are still attached! [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > only thing turning besides the flywheel is clutch disk, pressure plate > (clutch pedal feels perfect still) and maybe trans main shaft only? Well I had to ask about the other components just in case! lol If the engine is spinning, transmission is in gear, clutch is supposedly engaged, but the car is not moving then the clutch disc and trans mainshaft is not turning. You might be able to see the trans mainshaft not turning through that inspection hole at the top of the transmission. > As much as I hate the "throw away" system we have to live in, the cost to > have it fixed is more than it's worth if paying to get it done. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > tall...! HA! If I ever do get it apart (or know who does) I'll be sure > to let you know what it was. Well good luck with the sale. At least you have the engine running properly which should help the sale of the car for the max price! ;-) >quotes and comments below... > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and easy >clutch change. True, but at the price of a painful changing of things like the alternator which is tight against the firewall... (For those who don't know, Saab mounted the engines backwards in some vehicles before GM bought 'em. My classic 900 is built that way. Also the transmission is integral to the engine and forms the oil pan! ) >>Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and >>easy >>clutch change. > > True, but at the price of a painful changing of things like the > alternator which is tight against the firewall... Yeah, but the starter is an easy top side job! Well except the hood opens in the wrong direction... > (For those who don't know, Saab mounted the engines backwards in some > vehicles before GM bought 'em. My classic 900 is built that way. Also > the transmission is integral to the engine and forms the oil pan! ) Yeah, many a new owner whilst attempting to change their own oil wondered, "why does my Saab have red oil?"! SAAB???????? How did we get so far off topic?????????? Oh that's right... CIS... : ) >>>Yeah I wish.......I think that some of the Saabs allow for a quick and >>>easy [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Yeah, many a new owner whilst attempting to change their own oil wondered, >"why does my Saab have red oil?"! Then they go to add oil, "Uh, where's the oil filler on this thing?" <bg> >SAAB???????? How did we get so far off topic?????????? Oh that's right... >CIS... : ) Ah, naw, my Saab is parked right next to my VW Cabbie! Two convertibles in a row in the garage... > Well I had to ask about the other components just in case! lol Yeah, I WISH it could all be turning that easily / quietly... and I will be looking to make sure when the rain stops... > If the engine is spinning, transmission is in gear, clutch is supposedly > engaged, but the car is not moving then the clutch disc and trans > mainshaft is not turning. Are you saying there is no way it's a problem inside the transmission?? > You might be able to see the trans mainshaft not turning through that > inspection hole at the top of the transmission. All I could see there is the flywheel spinning, which occupies the whole hole (hole whole? a-hole? nevermind). I can see that the whole thing (the whole thing that occupies the whole hole?) is turning... but... how much space is between that and the trans housing?? I do have a bore scope! Maybe I can give it a rectal exam (back to first set of parenthesis)... OK, car parked out back. Out of sight, but not out of mind ; ). I went out with the bore scope. Couldn't see much other than flywheel with that. This things been bugging me. I've owned cars in the past that had almost no clutch left, clutches that grabbed terrible, chattering clutches, and while generally not stupid with a vehicle, have really "beaten the hell" out of a number of them... and never blown a clutch. Of all the vehicle repair I've done for customers as well as myself, friends, and family... I've only done 2 clutch jobs I can think of, and both of those vehicles would still drive (barely). So, I get to thinking again... how could I kill the clutch by just hitting the starter in reverse? Or, if doing that could really break something in the transmission it would have end up being a reverse only problem. And here I was actually adjusting the clutch when it turned to crap, so it must have been something to do with me somehow over adjusting it. So I unhooked the cable at the transmission end and "POP". the lever dropped down and clutch engaged! So, I will insert a quote here that I now whole (hole?) heartedly agree with: >I always double check the free play at the cable by just pulling up on it >at the threaded part so that it lifts the release bearing lever. >I don't trust the free play at the pedal much! Apparently, my whole problem to start with after getting the clutch pedal pushed back onto the pivot pin and getting a snap ring on it was this. The part that holds the cable housing at the pedal end had been broken. When I took the cable out, there was a broken pipe-like piece, and an extra washer someone had added in there in the past. Some how this hap-hazard repair re-orientated itself into dicking with me for hours (ok, technically days now!). Soooooooooo... HORRAY! It's fixed now! Well, not really fixed... just working again for now! And when I start it, it idles. Radiator fan cycles as it should. I think the temp sensor for the ecm (cold engine/80% duty cycle) opens a bit early. But O2 sensor may also need to be replaced, or at least run. I'm pretty sure I can advance the timing more (currently @ 6 btdc via timing light). But she's very much yard drivable and there is as of yet still no snow! Seems I remember seeing years ago, a good write-up on the clutch / firewall repair... I'll search. If anyone's got a recommended link or quick/easy method... And more for CIS! (back on topic!) My 79 has the NON-Lambda CIS. It works perfectly. Hit the key in any weather, even after sitting for 1/2 a year, and it instantly fires up and idles. And it will sit there and idle smoothly until warmed up. Cold, semi cold, warm, and hot restarts are never even the slightest issue. The idle speed may vary slightly, but this has no idle speed contol at all. Not even the digital ones they used on later ones. Nothing but the mechanical bypass one down behind the intake. I've never seen ANY cis system work as nicely as this, and have always wondered if the CIS Lambda can be un-lambda-ed?? While the Lambda systems were very much piggybacked on later (from an electrical point of view), the fuel distributor itself I believe is different. I imagine in order to do away with the frequency valve would require some sort of restriction in it's place to simulate about a 50% duty cycle? I've seen some that were just unplugged and the mixture screw turned in further to compensate. And this can easily be done and it not that much different of a setting. Certainly not enough to cause it to inject fuel with engine not running! But I always imagined that the part throttle mixture would be effected by doing this. Any thoughts? Obviously, it's better to keep the frequency valve, even if it's just kept @ 50% duty cycle. But if for some reason I ever had to replace a non-lambda fuel distributor (hopefully never for my 79), I doubt I'd find anything other than a Lambda one and of course the car doesn't have any of the electrics for running a frequency valve. Now, time to search out cable/firewall repair AND pull that CL post (or at least correct it and up the price a couple hundred)! lol OK glad you found the problem! ;-) > OK, car parked out back. Out of sight, but not out of mind ; ). > I went out with the bore scope. Couldn't see much other than flywheel [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > Now, time to search out cable/firewall repair AND pull that CL post (or at > least correct it and up the price a couple hundred)! |
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