I see safety above vanity. You apparently don't.

You must be an amazing guy to chat to - given you always make something
more from what a person says

I *think* I've made it clear that my objection consists of the brightness
of LED replacements 'off axis' compared to filament types. And so far none
has contradicted me.

You may feel it's your 'human right' to have turn signals that can't be
seen from the sides in high ambient light levels. If so, I hope it is you
that suffers from such vanity rather than innocent parties.

For my purposes, yes.

The point is, that statement is your opinion based upon what you see as
important, and not  a fact.  Other people may see other things as
important, and therefore have different opinions.

But were superior in every way to the approved type?

The point is that these LED replacement bulbs are *inferior* in every
respect to the tungsten ones - apart from perhaps life.

You might be happy having turn signals and brake lights that can't be seen
from certain angles in daylight where tungsten can - most, I'd guess would
not.

And I'm not theorising - I've tried them. If anyone says the ones I've
tried have been improved upon to the point where they are a safe
replacement, please give details of where they can be bought. And not just
an advert but personal experience of them.

About 30 years ago, i started to use aftermarket halogen headlights on my
car (back when 7 inch round headlights were the norm).  I believe the brand
was cibie.   Those headlights were not approved for usein the US because
they were not a sealed beam.

While there were a few police officers who took the time to inform me that
they disapproved of the speed at which I was driving, the illegal
headlights were never cited.  The car even passed state inspections.

The point here is one of degree and risk, and what of the former the
aftermarket lightbulb presents of the latter.  The rest of your messages I
read as more specious posturing than anything else.

Let me ask you a question or two then.

Would you buy a car that does not have "type Approval" for use on the road.  The
question also includes "Single Type Approval" and "Special Import Approval" for
use on the UK public road system?

How would you react when the said vehicle fails the "MOT" test because the
bulbs, number plate and or whole vehicle is not "Type Approved"?

Not true. Performance is what I wanted to know about (rather than E
markings).
I guess the answer is exactly as you say - have a go and see. If
performance is significantly compromised then they will be in the bin

You can disagree all you like but the fact is their off axis light output
is way below the correct filament bulb.

Yes - in custom designed units. Not using these 'replacement' bulbs in one
designed for a filament type.

Sigh. The manufacturers would love to be able to E mark their
replacements. They would sell far more. They *can't* be E marked because
they can't meet the spec.

Instead of arguing just buy them and do your own tests. But by the tone of
your posts you don't give a damn if they are effective or not for the job
but simply want them for fashion reasons.

I disagree - they appear better top me which is why I want to try them
Rear of lorries/motorcycles/school & public buses have them now too.
The E number is not of concern to me - but obviously poor functionality
is of concern. E numbers mean the bulb manufacturer has gone through an
expensive type approval routine. Non-E number means its compliance
cannot be verified NOT that it does not comply with requirements!

It allows purpose designed E marked LED lamp units - which is a *very*
different matter from using LED replacement bulbs in units designed for
filament types. Replacement bulbs for those must be E marked too - and
none of the LED ones are, for a very good reason. And that reason is they
are dangerous. Just to emphasise the points again they are either bright
enough when viewed straight on but useless to the side - one type - or dim
all round - the other type.

Oh - FWIW, the custom designed LED indictor units fitted to current VW
cars are not as bright viewed from directly behind as filament types and
considerably inferior to the sides. So could present a totally unnecessary
hazard in bright sunlight - all in the name of fashion.

Well not in the UK, which has [eventually] modified construction and use
regulation to allow LED lights, but to certain criteria.

A good example of UK civil service jobsworthiness is reflective number
plates: -

These were shown on Tomorrow's World about 40 years ago.

DoT (as it then was) rejected them out of hand and drivers who fitted them
prematurely were prosecuted.

OTOH Ireland was an early adopter.

Finally the UK went over to them and only cars pre 1973 could have non
reflective plates made.

Now they are obligatory, not only that if your [cherished] plate is to be
fitted to a post 2000 car, then you have to have new ones made with the BS
mark, although I suppose if they were compliant with BS you could post fix
the mark (see another thread).

Which means that they are illegal to use on the road.

You're probably right but these ones have high intensity pointing to the
rear with side clusters for the reflectors
They *may* be very good and I think I will give it a go with front
indicators first
As for E marking - the lack of it doesn't mean they don't comply, it
merely means they haven't been type approved. This could be due to tyhe
fact that it costs  so much to achieve these markings. It's rather like
saying that someone who has passed a driving test is a better driver
than someone who hasn't - which of course is not necessarily true (just
that passing proves it!).
Worth a try for £5

These simply don't produce the same light levels as a 21 watt indicator
bulb in the normal reflector.

Euro car lighting parts must be 'E' marked to conform with those regs. And
non of these replacements are - simply because they can't produce the
correct spread of light at an intensity to replace a 21 watt filament
type. The other type of LED replacement with 5mm leds 'firing' forward do
just about produce the same intensity - but only over a very narrow angle.

For safety lights like indicators etc where a wide viewing angle is
required these things are positively dangerous - they can't be seen in
bright daylight.

Take a look and tell me what you think - these seem pretty well designed
to widen the viewing angle:
http://www.virtualvillage.co.uk/Items/002510-030?

For a start there are no direct replacement LEDs for units designed for
tungsten - the optics on these lights is optimised for a point source
filament. And for things like indictors this is a very real problem in
sunlight etc - the LED replacements simply won't be as bright, or have the
same viewing angle. And it's not just a slight difference either. There
are currently no LED replacements that meet the specifications required by
law in Europe. Completely new lamp units designed from the start for LEDs
are a different matter.

They will also confuse the failed bulb warning system.

Can anyone advise me if fitting after market LED bulbs in indicators,
side adn brake lights confuse the onboard computer?
I prefer the more responsive light they offer but don't want the car
dinging me about dead bulbs!

I've a 2001 E39

Thanks
David