I can't, quick or otherwise.  Now go back and read what I wrote about
*any* EGR design possibility.  Some vehicles currently driving on the
road have both a vacuum-operated EGR valve and a position sensor.  Now
read the message I was replying to, and imagine if one were to think
that, just because one had a P0404 code, then one could not have a
vacuum hose somewhere in their EGR system.  (any make, any model,
theoretical or otherwise)

Damn, are you *that* thick?  Read the message I responded to.  The key
"word" is even in capitals.  You did quote both messages.

Toyota MDT in MO

Quick, name a Dodge vehicle with a vacuum operated EGR system that
uses a position sensor.

And what the hell does 'WORNG' mean?

If one were to assume that vacuum operated EGR valves and EGR position
sensors must be mutually exclusive in any possible EGR system then
one's assumption would also be WORNG.

Toyota MDT in MO

WRONG!! As I said there are reflashes out on particular model Minivans tha
require a flash of the PCM to install software that will update the engine
controller for an intermittent fault for turning the Check engine lite on
and setting a code for the EGR . Once again ...WORNG  The newer model
vehicles do NOT use a vacuum controlled EGR. it is all electronic. If you
knew what you were talking about you would Know that a P0404 fault code is
An EGR postion sensor fault there fore this valve is strickly electronic
and DOES NOT use vacuum to operate the EGR valve. Try again

Glenn

Max, without knowing the make/model/year, other than it's a Mopar -
Any Mopar mechanic worth his salt knows the EGR issues on the 4 cyl
engines - and knows they can be intermittent. The LEAST they could
have done is checked for a bad vacuum hose. They are VERY COMMON. It
is a WELL KNOWN PROBLEM. It costs about a buck to fix. Every Chrysler
dealership mechanic should be checking for the problem every time they
work on one of these cars - complaint or not - CEL or not.
And the dealer should be supplying the hose FREE OF CHARGE for every
one found bad. Best customer relations you could envision - "by the
way, there was a minor problem with your emission system -We fixed it
for you - here's the part we replaced - NO CHARGE - Have a good day!!"
Best buck and 5 minutes you could ever spend.

Not saying you made something up, The code could have been set for a number
of things, Computer related, vacuum related, wiring related or even a PCM
fault. If the lite is not on that means that the problem had corrected
itself, it is NOT a hard fault meaning the problem is not there at this
time. It would be a stored fault with a possible intermittent problem!!
Therefore if the dealer or whoever charged you a check out fee. It would
have come back as an educated guess to fix your problem or no work performed
at this time and you would have been charged for the check out time! Thus
feeling like you spent money for absolutely nothing!! There are TSB's out
that require a reflash of the engine controller that may or may not pertain
to your problem. since you do not want to specify year make and model all
you have on here is going to be a gripe that your independent/dealer can not
fix your car

I drive my car 100 miles per day, round trip to work and home. I know when
the slightest thing is out of whack with my car cause I drive it so much. I
would be the best person to identify an issue and be able to tell a mechanic
what is going on. They should then go in and check it out FULLY. Not give me
this crap about "if there's no computer code, there's nothing to fix." Then
charge me $70.00 for the 10 minutes he scan-tooled the computer.

Why the heck would I make something up (ex: P0404 EGR code) just to take my
car into the shop and pay out hard earned money? THAT doesn't make sense.
The only time my car is in the shop is when there is a problem. And now,
with the NYS inspections, emissions is a big issue - if ANY computer code is
on, you DON'T pass inspection. Anyway...

I wish you were running the show where I took my car - I would be one VERY
happy, repeat customer!

-Tom

I can't fully explain it, but it has been a problem for quite some
time. Not just Dodge dealers - but a large proportion of "american"
dealers. Sadly it's even starting to hit the import service
departments now too.
Number one, service managers are salesmen, not mechanics. If they
can't bill something, they can't/won't do anything.
Number two, mechanics work on flat rate. If they can't bill something,
they won't do anything.
Number three, too many mechanics today don't know how to troubleshoot.
Vehicles have gotten more complex, and mechanics have gotten to depend
on the computer diagnostics. If the computer says there is no problem
the can't/won't do anything.
Number four, the "salesman" service managers don't like ANYONE telling
them what's wrong with the car or second guessing them. They are "sick
and tired" of people who "know more than the mechanic", so they don't
listen to anybody any more. If the mechanic cannot (in a VERY short
time) duplicate the problem, he won't do anything.
Number five, Why fix it under warranty if they can "make it go away"
until it gets off warranty and becomes a big enough job they can all
make some bucks on it.(or sell you a new car).

It all boils down to greed.
One of the reasons I got out of that business. I was service manager
for 10 years - and I WAS a mechanic. My mechanics were NOT on flat
rate.
If my mechanics could not troubleshoot a problem, I could (and did).
I and my mechanics were trained and constantly upgraded to understand
the vehicle systems and failure modes. If you didn't want to keep up
and/or couldn't/wouldn't learn, you found yourself a different job.
The customer was king. HE knew what was bothering him about the car. I
asked the right questions to be able to point the mechanic in the
right direction to find the problem. I would very often PERSONALLY
test drive the car with the owner both before and after the repair to
verify the problem/repair. EVERY repair was test driven by the
mechanic when finished.

In the 10 years I was service manager I made the Dealer Principal over
$1million. He wasn't happy.(read that "he was greedy") He wanted me to
charge for every little thing I did for a customer, even though a
work-order cost $25 (20 years ago) to process over it's lifetime, and
many of the little things I did for customers would have been terribly
overpriced at the $25 it would have taken to just break even.

The service department sold more cars than the salesmen.

I walked. The dealership hired a salesman as service manager and went
flat rate.
A lot of customers walked.

Whenever I started missing "the business" I just whacked my head a few
times until the feeling went away. After about 5 years I stopped
missing it altogether.

I didn't ask them to replace it! All I asked them to do was to physically
check the EGR
Valve to make sure it was working ok. That's it - period. They did not,
because there
was no code at the time.

This problem did NOT exist when the plugs and wires were changed out. The
car IS going back to them tomorrow, but the EGR problem came up BEFORE the
plugs and wires were changed. AND the regular mechanic used the OEM parts at
a lower price than what a dealer would charge for them.

Because I have an extended warranty - Chrysler Added Care Plus - that will
cover
this crap. Why pay much more than you have to? I have a $100.00 deductible,
that
is a heck of a lot better than $750.00 or so to tear apart the transmission.

I have a right to voice my opinion in a public forum such as this. You have
a problem
with my rant because you are a dealer tech, but it's not directed at you, so
take it
easy!

So I'm an "idiot" because a Dodge dealer service dept did not do their job
right and
I chose to rant about it on a public forum? I didn't name names either.
If it makes you feel better to resort to name calling, feel free - I have
broad shoulders.
Whatever floats your boat.

Look, I did NOT post my year/make/model because I DON'T want someone on here
to tell me what is/might be wrong. I just want to know why you take a car
to a dealer, tell them specifically what the problem(s) are, just ask them
to check
it out and PHYSICALLY see if the EGR is ok, PHYSICALLY see that the Torque
Converter is ok,
PHYSICALLY see that the CV joints are ok. But it seems like, if there is no
computer code,
there's no problem.

And that's MY problem. I asked them to PHYSICALLY check it out, you know,
get their hands dirty,
but they refused because there is no computer code.

Stop taking offense because you work for a dealer. This is NOT aimed at
Glenn Beasley, but
the dealer service centers that I have been to (2 of them). They charge WAY
too much for labor,
over-price all their parts, and then don't troubleshoot all the issues fully
or correctly.

If I did my job this way, I would not have a job.

And if they would have replaced the EGR valve and if  it didnt fix it you
would be right back at the dealer complaining because your car wasnt fixed.
You DONT replace a part just because there is a code!!!!

Why the hell dont you take it back to the place that put the plugs and wires
on it!!! if you spray water and see them arcing there is a
problem!!!!!!!!!!!! Your regular mechanic needs to be replaced!!!!

SO WHY DIDNT YOUR MECHANIC FIX THE PROBLEM??? Damn stop Crying!!!!

I can explain it to you and i have never told anyone this but your an
Idiot!!! you post a question here, or should I say you cry on here , dont
give a year make or model and expect to get answers. get a life or buy a
Ford!!

Glenn Beasley
Chrysler Tech. at the dealer!!

I took my car in for 3 issues...

1) P0404 code (EGR Valve stuck) on the odometer when I turn the key
on-off-on-off-on, except when I took it into the dealer to have them check
it out, they wouldn't even look at the EGR Valve because the code was no
longer in the computer. I told them I saw the code on the odometer display
using this method AND by using a scan tool from AutoZone. They told me the
AutoZone tool is worthless, just so they can charge $70.00 to connect
theirs, but it showed the exact same code as the ignition method.

2) My car has been hesitating, lurching, bucking, whatever you want to call
it, while maintaining a constant speed. They said they sprayed water on the
plug wires and they are arcing to ground. Need to replace the wires AND the
plugs they said! I Just had the plugs and wires changed 6 weeks ago! Top of
the line stuff too. But instead of saying to replace the wires only, they
said the plugs too! Why? My regular mechanic said they are full of BS.

3) My car clunks when I shift into a gear, and when I take off - my regular
mechanic says Torque Converter and it's killing the CV Joints. I told them
this, they said they could not duplicate the issue so they did nothing! I
picked my car up from the dealer and when i put it in gear and took off -
SAME CLUNKING sounds! What the heck? They wouldn't even check the Torque
Convert and CV joints out - most likely because there was no computer code
for them.

Why are dealer service dept's like this? Why don't they fix your car when
you take it to them? I'm so sick of dealers. I have an extended warranty and
my guess is that they want out of it as cheaply as they can, wait till the
warranty is over, then fix the car for 2-3x what a regular mechanic will
charge you. I'm sick of it - can someone explain to me why this is?

Ticked off bad,

-TRogers