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Re: Newer cars a lot safer? Worth the expense?

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Re: Newer cars a lot safer? Worth the expense?

jim beam12 Feb 2008 02:56
>>>> if that is truly a concern, wear a helmet.  seriously.  if transport
>>>> safety authorities were serious about safety, helmets and 5-point seat
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> and attaching a 5-point harness every time they make a trip to the grocery
> store?  Get real.  Try to speak in relation to reality for a change.

i'm pointing out that if safety were the real objective, harnesses and
helmets are the way to go - because they are much more effective.  what
you're exhibiting is personal dislike - but that's not engineering analysis.

>>>> 2. heavier cars are harder to stop, given that tire sizes are the same
>>>> and thus available braking traction is the same.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Nice try at dodging the issue.  Wider tires also assist braking due to
> more surface area contacting the road.  Simple physics, man.

for dry clean road.  but in the circumstances i outlined, wider tires
can be a problem because the larger contact area decreases the ground
pressure and thus ability to retain contact.

>  
>> not to mention the existence of ABS.  Today's cars can stop *MUCH*
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Wrong again.  You really don't understand much, do you?

i stated fact - check your owners manual.

>>>> 3. modern cars consume more resources in their manufacture.
>  
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The point was that we as consumers, can't control that aspect.

yes we can - we absolutely control what we buy.

>  If you
> want a new car, you buy a new car.  You can't buy a "new" 1985 model just
> because you want something that was made with "less resources".

you can if you want to.  i prefer older vehicles for the above reasons,
so i drive older vehicles.  concept seems simple to me.

and the correct english is "fewer resources".

Dan C11 Feb 2008 14:07
>>> if that is truly a concern, wear a helmet.  seriously.  if transport
>>> safety authorities were serious about safety, helmets and 5-point seat
>>> belts would be mandatory.

>> Will a helmet keep the steering column from piercing your chest?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>> while driving 20+ MPH over the speed limit, and driving the biggest
>> vehicle they (can't) afford.  An airbag is a necessity.

> untrue.  there are no air bags in race cars.  race cars can crash at
> 150+ and the driver walks away because [s]he's properly restrained.
> 5-point belts and helmets will save many more lives than airbags.

Jesus, you really are clueless.  There's more to it than belts and
helmets.  There are roll cages, kill switches, fuel cells, and more, in a
race car.  Can you see the normal citizen putting on a full-face helmet
and attaching a 5-point harness every time they make a trip to the grocery
store?  Get real.  Try to speak in relation to reality for a change.

>>> 2. heavier cars are harder to stop, given that tire sizes are the same
>>> and thus available braking traction is the same.

>> Tire sizes are generally quite a bit wider now-a-days than they used to
>> be,

> that's a function of suspension, not desire to improve braking.  you
> need wider tires with macpherson strut to make up for its geometrical
> shortcomings.  the disadvantage of wider tires is more gas consumption
> and more tendency to aquaplane in rain or slide on loose surfaces.

Nice try at dodging the issue.  Wider tires also assist braking due to
more surface area contacting the road.  Simple physics, man.

> not to mention the existence of ABS.  Today's cars can stop *MUCH*
> better than a car of 15-20 years ago.

> untrue.  they can help a driver stop under certain conditions where
> inexperience or lack of skill may be a problem, but in many situations,
> anti-lock braking distances can be longer than stock brakes.  check your
> owners manual.

Wrong again.  You really don't understand much, do you?

>>> 3. modern cars consume more resources in their manufacture.

>> That's beyond our control,

> if we make it, we control it.  by definition.

The point was that we as consumers, can't control that aspect.  If you
want a new car, you buy a new car.  You can't buy a "new" 1985 model just
because you want something that was made with "less resources".

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"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".


jim beam11 Feb 2008 06:03
>>> but I feel like I should
>>> probably buy a newer car with airbags for more safety in a crash.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> while driving 20+ MPH over the speed limit, and driving the biggest
> vehicle they (can't) afford.  An airbag is a necessity.

untrue.  there are no air bags in race cars.  race cars can crash at
150+ and the driver walks away because [s]he's properly restrained.
5-point belts and helmets will save many more lives than airbags.

>> 1. paradoxically, the gas savings of more efficient modern engines are
>> offset by much heavier modern cars, so no benefit there.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Tire sizes are generally quite a bit wider now-a-days than they used to
> be,

that's a function of suspension, not desire to improve braking.  you
need wider tires with macpherson strut to make up for its geometrical
shortcomings.  the disadvantage of wider tires is more gas consumption
and more tendency to aquaplane in rain or slide on loose surfaces.

 not to mention the existence of ABS.  Today's cars can stop *MUCH*
> better than a car of 15-20 years ago.

untrue.  they can help a driver stop under certain conditions where
inexperience or lack of skill may be a problem, but in many situations,
anti-lock braking distances can be longer than stock brakes.  check your
owners manual.

>> 3. modern cars consume more resources in their manufacture.
>
> That's beyond our control,

if we make it, we control it.  by definition.

> and not a factor in anything.

Dan C11 Feb 2008 04:29
>> but I feel like I should
>> probably buy a newer car with airbags for more safety in a crash.

> if that is truly a concern, wear a helmet.  seriously.  if transport
> safety authorities were serious about safety, helmets and 5-point seat
> belts would be mandatory.

Will a helmet keep the steering column from piercing your chest?

Will a helmet keep your neck and ribs from snapping when that SUV hits you
directly on the driver's door at 60mph?

The answer to both questions is "NO".  An airbag likely would, though.

I wouldn't drive, or let any member of my family drive, a vehicle without
airbags.  Yeah, we all used to do it "back in the day", but things change.
There's just no good reason to not have them now.  Not to mention the fact
that the roads are crowded with inattentive morons talking on cell phones
while driving 20+ MPH over the speed limit, and driving the biggest
vehicle they (can't) afford.  An airbag is a necessity.

> 1. paradoxically, the gas savings of more efficient modern engines are
> offset by much heavier modern cars, so no benefit there.

We're talking safety here, not gas mileage.  Would you rather be safe(r),
or save $0.23 on a trip across town?

> 2. heavier cars are harder to stop, given that tire sizes are the same
> and thus available braking traction is the same.

Tire sizes are generally quite a bit wider now-a-days than they used to
be, not to mention the existence of ABS.  Today's cars can stop *MUCH*
better than a car of 15-20 years ago.

> 3. modern cars consume more resources in their manufacture.

That's beyond our control, and not a factor in anything.

Signature

"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".


jim beam11 Feb 2008 04:00
> I have a 1991 Honda Civic and it runs well,

great car.

> but I feel like I should
> probably buy a newer car with airbags for more safety in a crash.

if that is truly a concern, wear a helmet.  seriously.  if transport
safety authorities were serious about safety, helmets and 5-point seat
belts would be mandatory.

> Another reason I might want to buy another car is that mine is small.
> A larger car would probably provide additional protection.  On the
> other hand, if I keep my current car I'd save money.  Does anyone
> think it's not necessarily worthy spending the money for a bigger car
> with airbags?

these are not airbag issues, but they are "should i buy a more modern
car or look at the big picture" issues:

1. paradoxically, the gas savings of more efficient modern engines are
offset by much heavier modern cars, so no benefit there.

2. heavier cars are harder to stop, given that tire sizes are the same
and thus available braking traction is the same.

3. modern cars consume more resources in their manufacture.

ahorsefly@yahoo.com10 Feb 2008 19:56
I have a 1991 Honda Civic and it runs well, but I feel like I should
probably buy a newer car with airbags for more safety in a crash.
Another reason I might want to buy another car is that mine is small.
A larger car would probably provide additional protection.  On the
other hand, if I keep my current car I'd save money.  Does anyone
think it's not necessarily worthy spending the money for a bigger car
with airbags?

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