Hello,
I agree with you related to your last point. I am now 54 years old and
remember all of the problems I had with cars made in the 1960's, 70's and
early 80's. The carburetor and electrical system was the main source of
those problems. I have never had any problems with the EFI system or
electrical system in both of Honda Accords that I have owned.
Jason

there's a substantial element of truth to that, and you're thinking big
picture which is good, but for smaller utilitarian cars at least, there
is an overall benefit for the newer more efficient vehicles.  whether
that continues to be the case is another matter now that we have
relatively clean burning fuel injected cars, but compared to
carburetion, the overall benefit of modern cars is worth the
manufacturing effort.

"" wrote:

The only problem I have with hybrids is that people dump their "old"
cars to purchase an environmentally friendlier vehicle....

It is my understanding that the processes involved in manufacturing a
new car cause more polution than driving the same car will produce
over its entire lifetime.  

So the greenest car is a used one...no matter the gas mileage.

Back to the issue....
Let me put it this way: all Toyota has to do is enter into a contract with a
company to handle the recycling on a per-unit basis and add the cost of that
and the $200 deposit to the battery. Then they can make the claim in good
conscience. It greatly limits their liabilities and costs them nothing at
all. They would be incomprehensibly stupid not to... so what on earth would
make you think such a thing?

Mike

Is it your position that Toyota's press releases are 100% truthful and
without omissions?

You miss my whole point.

Let me put it this way:  when President Bush puts something in black and
white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and not
necessarily accept what he says at face value?

That's all I said.  Nothing more.  I never said they were wrong; I said
they were spinning things, exactly like any politician or corporate
flack spins things.

Whenever a company puts out a press release, they're spinning things.  
That's why corporations like that have big PR departments, and that's
why they have corporate policies that any contact with the press be done
only by or in conjunction with someone from their corporate PR
department.

All I said was, it looks good--but remember, they have an axe to grind,
and they spin things just like any other corporate or political entity.

Would it surprise any of us if we found out that they weren't being 100%
truthful?  Not at all--because it's their job to obfuscate anything that
would be detrimental to their sole job of making money for their
shareholders.

Well, since Toyota has put their side in black and white, it's up to you to
to do the investigating and come up with something concrete. So far the
assertion that they are lying through their teeth (as they must if the claim
they are recycling the batteries is false) is weaker than the "who shot
Kennedy" conspiracy theories. Give us something we can use. Either you can
catch them in a huge lie or you are blowing smoke.

Mike

They have an agenda--sell more cars.

I don't.  I simply don't like being spoon-fed by people who have an
agenda.

If you enjoy being spoon-fed by people who have an agenda--and
everything you say points that direction--that's your problem.

Is it, then, your assertion that they are NOT spinning?

Hmmmmmm.....I don't think I ever said that one way or another.

I simply said "beware, and investigate it more".  You, on the other
hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

One wonders why you would say that.

I see, so far, no evidence to support the press release.  Toyota said
some things.  I say, that's nice--but investigate further.  You say, "if
they said it, I assume that it's 100% true and you have to prove
otherwise."  That's your problem.

is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more stuff.
By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale without
investigating it more.<<

Congratulations.  You've just won the grand prize for missing the point.
They have data.  You don't.  You just assume that they're "spinning" because
they're a big, bad company with an axe to grind.  YOU made the allegation
that they're "spinning."  Where's your proof?  Show us your data to prove
their data wrong.  We're waiting.

be 100% correct and truthful?<<

Add to the above cited prize another one for putting words in someone's
mouth.  I decided no such thing.  I see, so far, no evidence to contradict
the press release, but that doesn't mean the evidence does or does not
exist.  You, OTOH, just assume it's a lie.

Still waiting for that proof.

Hmmmmmm.  I'm not saying to believe or disbelieve; I'm simply pointing
out that, like any good corporate PR machine, Toyota is spinning their
side of the story very hard in order to sell more stuff.  By that token,
you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale without investigating it more.

But because I'm saying that, you decide that Toyota's press release must
be 100% correct and truthful?

You lead an interesting life.

hard...In other words, never listen to a car salesman.  And that's all that
PR piece is.<<

Right.  However, according to you we should believe any yahoo who posts
under an assumed name in a newsgroup, without any proof whatsoever.

Thanks.  I needed a good laugh today.

All I'm saying is, Toyota is spinning their side of the story very hard.

Don't accept it at face value.  You're a fool if you do.  They have an
axe to grind, and they'll spin it however they have to in order to make
themselves look as good as possible and sell as many cars as possible.

In other words, never listen to a car salesman.  And that's all that PR
piece is.

....and?
That's it?

Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.

Spun like a member of the Clinton family.

If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.

Maybe the author of the article should have done a little actual
research.  Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
and recycling:

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id=20040623

How long does the Prius battery last and what is the replacement cost?

The Prius battery (and the battery-power management system) has been
designed to maximize battery life. In part this is done by keeping the
battery at an optimum charge level - never fully draining it and never
fully recharging it. As a result, the Prius battery leads a pretty
easy life. We have lab data showing the equivalent of 180,000 miles
with no deterioration and expect it to last the life of the vehicle.
We also expect battery technology to continue to improve: the
second-generation model battery is 15% smaller, 25% lighter, and has
35% more specific power than the first. This is true of price as well.
Between the 2003 and 2004 models, service battery costs came down 36%
and we expect them to continue to drop so that by the time
replacements may be needed it won't be a much of an issue. Since the
car went on sale in 2000, Toyota has not replaced a single battery for
wear and tear.

Is there a recycling plan in place for nickel-metal hydride batteries?

Toyota has a comprehensive battery recycling program in place and has
been recycling nickel-metal hydride batteries since the RAV4 Electric
Vehicle was introduced in 1998. Every part of the battery, from the
precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is
recycled. To ensure that batteries come back to Toyota, each battery
has a phone number on it to call for recycling information and dealers
are paid a $200 "bounty" for each battery.

Elliot Richmond
Freelance Science Writer and Editor

The current edition of "Car and Driver" (magazine) has an interesting
article about the dark side of the hybrids on page 26. The date on the
cover is September 2005.

Many of the so called "greenies" have purchased hybrids because they
really care about the environment. I learned about something from the
article that I had never thought about before. What's going to happen to
those millions of batteries in hybrid vehicles after they wear out? They
will be placed in landfills. Imagine the harm that those batteries may do
to the enviroment after they are laying in a landfill for 50 years.

If you own or are planning to buy a hybrid vehicle, I advise you to read
the article.

Jason